[SPOILERS]Should have brought a BC(P) or three to the party.

Jonathan_S wrote:Sorry for replying to this fairly old post - I'm still catching up on the forum after finally getting a chance to read Uncompromising Honor.

runsforcelery wrote:For that matter, the individual birds' seekers are just as capable as the Mark 23's. What they lack is the data sharing and FTL telemetry node of the Mark 23-E, which limits what they can do with what their seekers and sensors can see.

Huh, I'd have assumed the Mk16's seekers were marginally less capable just because it's a smaller missile with less area for the sensor to go.

The Mk16 appears to be smaller in diameter (which is how you can fit 14 in the same cross section that holds just 10 Mk23s); I'd guesstimate it's maybe 85% the diameter of the Mk23. I'd have thought the smaller diameter would force a smaller sensor - which in turn would translate to a reduced capability. (Analogous to a smaller radar dish having less sensitivity - all else being equal)

How did Manticore end up with the same seeker performance when the Mk23's got probably 40% or more cm^2 frontal area available for its sensor?

Mk16's operate closer to their launch ships, than Mk23's; so they have effective parity with Mk23's for accuracy despite smaller sensor packages. Pretty sure that explanation was there prior to Henke getting captured, explaining why BCP's use pods with Mk16's.

Battlecruisers also have less computer power than SD's (apparently), so they have to get closer to get the same effect out of their birds. So loading an Aggy with Mk23's, she'd still have to get closer than an Invictus would, to get the same effective fire control.

When you combine having to get closer, with the smaller payload of a Mk23 pod, it does make sense to go with the Mk16's. 14 missiles per pod instead of 10 pre-Apollo, or 8 plus an Apollo Control is a large increase. More birds means more ship-killers and more pen-aids, and you can overwhelm the targets anti-missile capability that much faster. After all, if you can't get past their missile defenses at all, your accuracy doesn't matter zero detonations = zero damage inflicted

Mk23 and Mk16s use the same laser rods, with the same targeting system. Mk23s just have more rods.

Jonathan_S wrote:<snip>


Also while 23-E w/ Mk16 would be an interesting stop gap since nothing smaller than an SD(P) can currently carry the Keyhole II needed to take advantage of the 23-E's FTL capabilities wouldn't it make more sense in the medium term to develop a smaller control missile equivalent for the Mk16; a 16-E in effect?

To coordinate Mk15s you only need 2 drives, and you don't need the FTL control link transceiver - but you do need to node to node coordination and sensor sharing, the control link multiplier, and the improved "AI" expert systems (and probably more than 8 control links for attack missiles). A dedicated missile with, say, 10 to 12 control links so you could build a pod of 10 to 12 Mk16s + a Mk16-E would make BC(P)s much more dangerous without having to figure out how to stick the mismatched and overkill Mk23-E into the salvo.

(Of course if you do that now we've back to wondering if BC(L)s should start getting build with oversized missile tubes so they can launch the control missile; of if BC(P)s get to monopolize extremely long range BC lethality )

For the RMN and friends, if they can shoehorn the ACM control system and 6-10 control links in the space of the weapons bay of the Mk-16, they would be golden. Forget the FTL hardware, and just go for the multiplier and control hardware, and place 2 mini-controls in a pod, and replace 1 tube fired bird, for every so many attack birds.

A Havenite version can't be far behind, and You know everyone else who is playing with pods and/or long range missiles will be looking at a similiar solution or have something in a recon drone form. In 10 years, every major navy will have a version of a forward missile controller/multiplier.

Of course the Missing Mk16 - F that Helen does not know about is BuWep's first attempt at a Mk16 Tube sized DD forward controller missile.
No room for laser heads and lots of channels for cross communication with the Mk16 and smaller missiles. I would expect it to have some EW capability as well - Not the same as Dragon's teeth or Dazzelers but perhaps something new.

Current issue is making the FTL transmitters / Receivers small enough - they don't even fit in a standard Mk23. Hence the Hermes Fire Control system/ lash up.

Of course this weapon may be stillborn - not all developments make production.

posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=9676#

[quote="Captain Golding"]Of course the Missing Mk16 - F that Helen does not know about is BuWep's first attempt at a Mk16 Tube sized DD forward controller missile.
No room for laser heads and lots of channels for cross communication with the Mk16 and smaller missiles. I would expect it to have some EW capability as well - Not the same as Dragon's teeth or Dazzelers but perhaps something new.

Current issue is making the FTL transmitters / Receivers small enough - they don't even fit in a standard Mk23. Hence the Hermes Fire Control system/ lash up.

Of course this weapon may be stillborn - not all developments make production.


-----------------

(1) The Mk-16F "may" be a "tum te tum tum" issue. His Celeryness has to keep a few things hidden

(2) Remember that the MK-16 (all versions) is a 2-drive missile and the MK-23, besides being SIGNIFICANTLY larger, is a 3-drive missile, so there is an inherent range advantage to the MK-23 as well as a warhead advantage.

(3) The Sag-A's and Sag-B's (and all the old Starknight's) are only capable of using the MK-14 Extended Range missile, and there are a LOT of them out there.

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:(3) The Sag-A's and Sag-B's (and all the old Starknight's) are only capable of using the MK-14 Extended Range missile, and there are a LOT of them out there.

Only Sag-Bs and Maya Sector Marksman-class "CLs" (and possibly flight III/IV Reliant BCs and Kamerling CAs) are capable of using Mark-14s. Wolfhound DDs and Avalon CLs have Mark-36 Lightweight Extended-Range Missiles. It's not at all clear that older ships can use either of them.

drothgery wrote:

stewart wrote:(3) The Sag-A's and Sag-B's (and all the old Starknight's) are only capable of using the MK-14 Extended Range missile, and there are a LOT of them out there.

Only Sag-Bs and Maya Sector Marksman-class "CLs" (and possibly flight III/IV Reliant BCs and Kamerling CAs) are capable of using Mark-14s. Wolfhound DDs and Avalon CLs have Mark-36 Lightweight Extended-Range Missiles. It's not at all clear that older ships can use either of them.

Certainly most of the ships at Monica couldn't.
OOB:
HMS Hexapuma - Sag-C-class CA w/ Mk16 DDM
HMS Aegis -Avalon-class DD w/ Mk36 LERM
HMS Warlock - Star Knight-class CA
HMS Vigilant - Star Knight-class CA
HMS Gallant - ?Valiant?-class CL[1]
HMS Audacious - ?-class CL[1]
HMS Javelin - ?-class DD[2]
HMS Janissary - ?-class DD[2]
HMS Rondeau - Chanson-class DD[3]
HMS Aria - Chanson-class DD[3]

[1] "Gallant and Audacious, both sisters of his dead Defiant" and the wiki claims Definat was a Valiant-class; but a quick search failed to discovery any text-ev about her class so take with an enormous grain of salt
[2] "relatively modern"
[3] "ancient (though neither of them was really any older than Warlock)"

Though oddly, as written it makes it sound like Warlock had, by a marginal advantage over the other remaining ships, the second longest missile range. Why she'd have a range advantage equaling to a few extra seconds is unclear - especially over her sister ship Vigilant. House of Steel says an Avalon-class is supposed to carry Mk36 LERMs and those should be good for at least 11.4 million km (225 second endurance) but I think they're more likely to match the 16 million km (270 second endurance) the Mark14s seem good for. So why is she lumped in with the rest, seconds after the 2nd CA opens fire, instead of thickening Hexapuma's salvos once the range drops?

Sure even with LERMs a DD probably doesn't have the deepest magazines, and her warheads aren't going to be anywhere near as effective against even the bow armor of DC, but when a fragile ship like that has a chance to wear down an enemy before they can respond? Seems crazy to pass that up.

If nothing else her fire would give their point defense more to worry about and even if her laserheads can't punch as deep into the armor as the heavier ones Hexapuma is throwing each hit to that hammerhead might damage radar, PDLCs or CM tubes - which will just make things easier for the other cruisers once the fight reaches their missile range.


Anyway at least as that point none of the older ships were carrying ERMs (except Warlock might have had missiles with either a few seconds more endurance or a couple thousand extra gees letting her just edge out the others). It seems unlikely that if an ERM could be built to fit the old launchers that the RMN wouldn't have been filling every light unit's magazines with the superior missile. But everything we've read implies that squeezing the longer endurance nodes and the 50+% more capacitor power leads to a noticable larger missile that requires a larger tube - so not going to be usable in older units.

Jonathan_S wrote:

drothgery wrote:Only Sag-Bs and Maya Sector Marksman-class "CLs" (and possibly flight III/IV Reliant BCs and Kamerling CAs) are capable of using Mark-14s. Wolfhound DDs and Avalon CLs have Mark-36 Lightweight Extended-Range Missiles. It's not at all clear that older ships can use either of them.

Certainly most of the ships at Monica couldn't.
OOB:
HMS Hexapuma - Sag-C-class CA w/ Mk16 DDM
HMS Aegis -Avalon-class DD w/ Mk36 LERM
HMS Warlock - Star Knight-class CA
HMS Vigilant - Star Knight-class CA
HMS Gallant - ?Valiant?-class CL[1]
HMS Audacious - ?-class CL[1]
HMS Javelin - ?-class DD[2]
HMS Janissary - ?-class DD[2]
HMS Rondeau - Chanson-class DD[3]
HMS Aria - Chanson-class DD[3]

[1] "Gallant and Audacious, both sisters of his dead Defiant" and the wiki claims Definat was a Valiant-class; but a quick search failed to discovery any text-ev about her class so take with an enormous grain of salt
[2] "relatively modern"
[3] "ancient (though neither of them was really any older than Warlock)"

Though oddly, as written it makes it sound like Warlock had, by a marginal advantage over the other remaining ships, the second longest missile range. Why she'd have a range advantage equaling to a few extra seconds is unclear - especially over her sister ship Vigilant. House of Steel says an Avalon-class is supposed to carry Mk36 LERMs and those should be good for at least 11.4 million km (225 second endurance) but I think they're more likely to match the 16 million km (270 second endurance) the Mark14s seem good for. So why is she lumped in with the rest, seconds after the 2nd CA opens fire, instead of thickening Hexapuma's salvos once the range drops?

Sure even with LERMs a DD probably doesn't have the deepest magazines, and her warheads aren't going to be anywhere near as effective against even the bow armor of DC, but when a fragile ship like that has a chance to wear down an enemy before they can respond? Seems crazy to pass that up.

If nothing else her fire would give their point defense more to worry about and even if her laserheads can't punch as deep into the armor as the heavier ones Hexapuma is throwing each hit to that hammerhead might damage radar, PDLCs or CM tubes - which will just make things easier for the other cruisers once the fight reaches their missile range.


Anyway at least as that point none of the older ships were carrying ERMs (except Warlock might have had missiles with either a few seconds more endurance or a couple thousand extra gees letting her just edge out the others). It seems unlikely that if an ERM could be built to fit the old launchers that the RMN wouldn't have been filling every light unit's magazines with the superior missile. But everything we've read implies that squeezing the longer endurance nodes and the 50+% more capacitor power leads to a noticable larger missile that requires a larger tube - so not going to be usable in older units.

There has been a Mk-13 ER mentioned a couple of times. As an assumption, it is backwards compatible with the mk 13's launchers (which the mk 14 is not). It must have longer range than the stock mk 13 (hence the ER designation), but has less range than the mk 14. We can assume that the Mk 13, the mk13 ER and the Mk 14 all initially had the same warhead, because the later mk16e has the same warhead as the mk 13. The mentions were post SoS, so the mk13-ER might be a later development as the technology matured, and would allow the Star Knights and Sag-As considerably more effective life.

The Valiant was launched in 1902, predating ER missiles by >10 years, and being a CL most likely used Mk34s. It was the last RMN CL design prior to the Avalon design, so, if not a Valiant, the Gallant would be even older. The Valiant as a direct replacement for the Courageous class, with most of the class's names carrying over to the new class. All the Courageous's were retired or sold out of RMN service by 1909, indicating that nothing at Monica in 1920 was that old. SO, with Audacious, Gallant, and Defiant definitely fall into the Courageous/Valiant naming scheme, one can assume that they were Valiants.

Also, Terehkov's nightmare was unloading the Defiant's bow grasers into enemy ships until they slagged. The only first war CL with bow grasers was the Valiant class. The only first war CLs with broadside grasers were Courageous and Valiant classes. With all the Courageous class out of the fleet by Monica, only the Valiants fit the bill.

In the original OOPSIE of SoS, the Aegis launched it's first shipkillers several seconds before the Star Knight CAs, but this was updated in the final for some reason. One could assume a decision was made that it's small magazines would be best spent when throwing it's weight with the rest of the fleet. The Hexapuma was playing Picador with the BCs, weakening them and finding their ECM for the rest of the fleet. 2 or 3 enhanced salvos might not have been seen as a benefit, especially when it might cause the BCs to shift focus to the lesser defended Aegis. (which ended up being able to take care of herself.)

Theemile wrote:There has been a Mk-13 ER mentioned a couple of times. As an assumption, it is backwards compatible with the mk 13's launchers (which the mk 14 is not). It must have longer range than the stock mk 13 (hence the ER designation), but has less range than the mk 14. We can assume that the Mk 13, the mk13 ER and the Mk 14 all initially had the same warhead, because the later mk16e has the same warhead as the mk 13. The mentions were post SoS, so the mk13-ER might be a later development as the technology matured, and would allow the Star Knights and Sag-As considerably more effective life.

The Valiant was launched in 1902, predating ER missiles by >10 years, and being a CL most likely used Mk34s. It was the last RMN CL design prior to the Avalon design, so, if not a Valiant, the Gallant would be even older. The Valiant as a direct replacement for the Courageous class, with most of the class's names carrying over to the new class. All the Courageous's were retired or sold out of RMN service by 1909, indicating that nothing at Monica in 1920 was that old. SO, with Audacious, Gallant, and Defiant definitely fall into the Courageous/Valiant naming scheme, one can assume that they were Valiants.

Also, Terehkov's nightmare was unloading the Defiant's bow grasers into enemy ships until they slagged. The only first war CL with bow grasers was the Valiant class. The only first war CLs with broadside grasers were Courageous and Valiant classes. With all the Courageous class out of the fleet by Monica, only the Valiants fit the bill.

In the original OOPSIE of SoS, the Aegis launched it's first shipkillers several seconds before the Star Knight CAs, but this was updated in the final for some reason. One could assume a decision was made that it's small magazines would be best spent when throwing it's weight with the rest of the fleet. The Hexapuma was playing Picador with the BCs, weakening them and finding their ECM for the rest of the fleet. 2 or 3 enhanced salvos might not have been seen as a benefit, especially when it might cause the BCs to shift focus to the lesser defended Aegis. (which ended up being able to take care of herself.)

Interesting, and good detective work coming up with that evidence about the CL class.

I took another look at this and some stuff looks odd with the geometry, but it does say the BCs had an "overtake advantage of 38,985 KPS", that "Assuming the battlecruisers' shipboard missile performance approximated ONI's estimates, their range would be under fifteen million kilometers, despite their overtake" [1]

That tracks. If ONI had solid numbers on the Javelin (180s @ 47,600 gees) then with that closing velocity I get 14.5 million km (if they assumed RMN SDM performance 180s @ 46,000 gees then 14.3 million km).
The part that doesn't track is the Mk16 numbers it gives "Hexapuma's maximum powered envelope at launch was increased to almost thirty-seven million kilometers". At that closing velocity the 29 million km reach of the Mk16 should have increased to 43 million km!

Then it says

Shadow of Saganami - Ch 58 wrote:Warlock would also have a slight range advantage over the Monican battlecruisers, but it wasn't great enough to change the tactical equation significantly. Her tubes were simply too small; she couldn't handle even the Mark 14 missiles the Saganami-Bs had been designed to fire, much less a Saganami-C's Mark 16s, so her advantage would be little more than three million kilometers

. If we assume Warlock's missile acceleration is no higher than other RMN missiles then given that closing velocity that seems to imply they somehow got another ~15% endurance out of the drive nodes, 207s @ 46,000 gees. Which would give 17.7 million km in this geometry or 9.6 million km from rest (about a 30% increase in range).
That's a far cry from the 25% endurance improvement they got out of the Mk31 CM and other people have gotten from their ERMs, much less the 50% increase the Mark14 seems to have.

Oh, and rereading it Vigilant was basically turned into a hulk by the earlier pod launch - that's why we don't see her missile range discussed as that only comes up in the later engagement with the BCs.

So like the text says Warlock can engage about 75 seconds before the ex-SLN ships can so why she waited until just seconds before the rest of the RMN ships opened up at 11.4 million km is a mystery. (For 2 reasons. Given the closure rate even old RMN missiles should have had 14.3 million km range (less than the 14.7 the ex-SLN ships should have had). But Warlock's stated 3 million km range advantage over those SLN ships should have had her firing 75 seconds before they did or 85 seconds before the rest of her RMN consorts.
Well, except that Aegis could have been firing from 26.9 million km, or 236 seconds before Warlock.

I guess despite talk of Warlock's range advantage (and Aegis's unmentioned one) Terekhov decided to hold off until he could mass the fire of those 2 with remaining the "severely mauled" CL and pair of DDs. Otherwise even if he hadn't had Aegis thickening Hexapuma's salvos she and Warlock could have chimed in 75 seconds earlier and got in 9 unopposed salvos before the BCs reached their range.

And why have say the ex-SLN BCs had almost a 15 million km range, but not have them return any fire until the rest of the RMN squadron opened up at 11.4 million km? Even over-fixated as they were on closing the range on the RMN units shouldn't they have been firing their chase tubes at Hexapuma as soon as they were in range? (I could see maybe focusing on the 1 unit that was attacking you, but to withhold fire for the 85 seconds it would take to go from the 14.7 million km where you enter range to the 11.4 where you finally open up now seems insane.

Still it is interesting that there's a somewhat extended drive missile for the old BCs even if it wasn't really taken advantage of here. But I wonder why there wasn't any equivalent for the CLs or DDs, not even the ones newer than a Starknight.


[1] To simplify calculations I am ignoring ship acceleration during this missile exchange and treating it like they were just coasting together at 38,986 KPS. Though a ballpark estimate shows Hexapuma's acceleration advantage over the time from first firing until the BCs returned fire should be less than 2,000 KPS, so a relatively small impact

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
Certainly most of the ships at Monica couldn't.
OOB:
HMS Hexapuma - Sag-C-class CA w/ Mk16 DDM
HMS Aegis -Avalon-class DD w/ Mk36 LERM
HMS Warlock - Star Knight-class CA
HMS Vigilant - Star Knight-class CA
HMS Gallant - ?Valiant?-class CL[1]
HMS Audacious - ?-class CL[1]
HMS Javelin - ?-class DD[2]
HMS Janissary - ?-class DD[2]
HMS Rondeau - Chanson-class DD[3]
HMS Aria - Chanson-class DD[3]

[1] "Gallant and Audacious, both sisters of his dead Defiant" and the wiki claims Definat was a Valiant-class; but a quick search failed to discovery any text-ev about her class so take with an enormous grain of salt
[2] "relatively modern"
[3] "ancient (though neither of them was really any older than Warlock)"

Though oddly, as written it makes it sound like Warlock had, by a marginal advantage over the other remaining ships, the second longest missile range. Why she'd have a range advantage equaling to a few extra seconds is unclear - especially over her sister ship Vigilant. House of Steel says an Avalon-class is supposed to carry Mk36 LERMs and those should be good for at least 11.4 million km (225 second endurance) but I think they're more likely to match the 16 million km (270 second endurance) the Mark14s seem good for. So why is she lumped in with the rest, seconds after the 2nd CA opens fire, instead of thickening Hexapuma's salvos once the range drops?

Sure even with LERMs a DD probably doesn't have the deepest magazines, and her warheads aren't going to be anywhere near as effective against even the bow armor of DC, but when a fragile ship like that has a chance to wear down an enemy before they can respond? Seems crazy to pass that up.

If nothing else her fire would give their point defense more to worry about and even if her laserheads can't punch as deep into the armor as the heavier ones Hexapuma is throwing each hit to that hammerhead might damage radar, PDLCs or CM tubes - which will just make things easier for the other cruisers once the fight reaches their missile range.


Anyway at least as that point none of the older ships were carrying ERMs (except Warlock might have had missiles with either a few seconds more endurance or a couple thousand extra gees letting her just edge out the others). It seems unlikely that if an ERM could be built to fit the old launchers that the RMN wouldn't have been filling every light unit's magazines with the superior missile. But everything we've read implies that squeezing the longer endurance nodes and the 50+% more capacitor power leads to a noticable larger missile that requires a larger tube - so not going to be usable in older units.

There has been a Mk-13 ER mentioned a couple of times. As an assumption, it is backwards compatible with the mk 13's launchers (which the mk 14 is not). It must have longer range than the stock mk 13 (hence the ER designation), but has less range than the mk 14. We can assume that the Mk 13, the mk13 ER and the Mk 14 all initially had the same warhead, because the later mk16e has the same warhead as the mk 13. The mentions were post SoS, so the mk13-ER might be a later development as the technology matured, and would allow the Star Knights and Sag-As considerably more effective life.

The Valiant was launched in 1902, predating ER missiles by >10 years, and being a CL most likely used Mk34s. It was the last RMN CL design prior to the Avalon design, so, if not a Valiant, the Gallant would be even older. The Valiant as a direct replacement for the Courageous class, with most of the class's names carrying over to the new class. All the Courageous's were retired or sold out of RMN service by 1909, indicating that nothing at Monica in 1920 was that old. SO, with Audacious, Gallant, and Defiant definitely fall into the Courageous/Valiant naming scheme, one can assume that they were Valiants.

Also, Terehkov's nightmare was unloading the Defiant's bow grasers into enemy ships until they slagged. The only first war CL with bow grasers was the Valiant class. The only first war CLs with broadside grasers were Courageous and Valiant classes. With all the Courageous class out of the fleet by Monica, only the Valiants fit the bill.

In the original OOPSIE of SoS, the Aegis launched it's first shipkillers several seconds before the Star Knight CAs, but this was updated in the final for some reason. One could assume a decision was made that it's small magazines would be best spent when throwing it's weight with the rest of the fleet. The Hexapuma was playing Picador with the BCs, weakening them and finding their ECM for the rest of the fleet. 2 or 3 enhanced salvos might not have been seen as a benefit, especially when it might cause the BCs to shift focus to the lesser defended Aegis. (which ended up being able to take care of herself.)

It is a shame that Tekerov didn't bring a couple of Rollands or a BCP to the party.