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[SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .

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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:07 pm

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We don't know what % or fee of any of the Lacoon II wormholes was either going to

1) OFS, OFS & the local OFS Govenor for those under Protectorate status or similar arrangement.

2) OFS or directly to the SL Admin Bureau for Intersetllar trade For SL Member sustems or non-SL independent Star Nations

3) It would appear that somebody like Beowulf would not have been paying fees (nobody has mentioned it) but Beowulf has been protecting it's end of the Sigma Draconis wormhole to the Junction and "has not required or requested" SL assistance or oversight.

This could be a fairly wide range of fee splitting but at this point OFS is out of the game and the actual question is what Manticore is going to do with those wormholes it holds. From Manticore's and the GA's perspective, the safest solution is to negotiate co-jurisdiction rights to the termini of said wormholes (seperate treaties with the systems at each end) and provide the Astro Control operations and oversight. Give that perhaps allmost all of those systems were previously dealing with OFS, this could be accomplished with a REDUCTION in tariffs/fees for transport but most likely that the local system would get a larger piece (because OFS isn't takeing a gigantic bite) and Manticore work with a smaller thatn 50% piece after the Astro Control and any security costs deductions.
Yes, at least Manticore would be providing modern starship/LAC security. Anything but using other GA naval assets would be putting these stratigic and tactical assets in jeopardy. Manticore and the GA really really doesn't want some rising problem System or group grabbing a terminus in the process of carving out an empire by force.

As far as the Junction is concerned, it would be prudent that Manticore retain the kind of multi-tiered fee schedule it has in the past. Manticore flagged shipping at one rate. Manticore allied systems a differnt rate, systems with specific levels of diplomatic and trade agreements another rate and general traffic yet another. Systems with difficulties with Manticore short of the kind of problems Erwhon had would be another -and seperately indexed- set of rates.
The same kind of thing would apply -adjusted for where and who the terminus holders are- across the known space.
I would suspect that there was some kind of rational basis for setting wormhole fees beyond the arivice of OFS, the Mandarins and various Presidents for Life. Probably something to do with the actual cost of managing and monitoring the wormhole, providing Astro Control service, and a level of income - with a scale above base cost ranged on the mass of ship and cargo (and other things ).
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:02 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:We don't know what % or fee of any of the Lacoon II wormholes was either going to

1) OFS, OFS & the local OFS Govenor for those under Protectorate status or similar arrangement.

2) OFS or directly to the SL Admin Bureau for Intersetllar trade For SL Member sustems or non-SL independent Star Nations


The answer is probably "most of it". The host star - at least non-member Verge planets - didn't get much or any of the transit fees.

3) It would appear that somebody like Beowulf would not have been paying fees (nobody has mentioned it) but Beowulf has been protecting it's end of the Sigma Draconis wormhole to the Junction and "has not required or requested" SL assistance or oversight.


IIRC Beowulf was paying similar transit fees to what Manticoran-flagged ships paid, and the Beowulf government got to keep part of those fees.

This could be a fairly wide range of fee splitting but at this point OFS is out of the game and the actual question is what Manticore is going to do with those wormholes it holds. From Manticore's and the GA's perspective, the safest solution is to negotiate co-jurisdiction rights to the termini of said wormholes (seperate treaties with the systems at each end) and provide the Astro Control operations and oversight. Give that perhaps allmost all of those systems were previously dealing with OFS, this could be accomplished with a REDUCTION in tariffs/fees for transport but most likely that the local system would get a larger piece (because OFS isn't takeing a gigantic bite) and Manticore work with a smaller thatn 50% piece after the Astro Control and any security costs deductions.

Yes, at least Manticore would be providing modern starship/LAC security. Anything but using other GA naval assets would be putting these stratigic and tactical assets in jeopardy. Manticore and the GA really really doesn't want some rising problem System or group grabbing a terminus in the process of carving out an empire by force.


Despite the name change, I don't think Manticore really intends to build an empire - at least not on the scale the Solarian League did. While Manticore may need to temporarily help newly-independent systems get themselves set up, they're more likely to let them go their own way as soon as they are able. If the RMN starts downsizing some in the near future, many of those half-pay officers may well end up as loaners helping newly independent systems set up navies and customs patrols of their own.

As far as the Junction is concerned, it would be prudent that Manticore retain the kind of multi-tiered fee schedule it has in the past. Manticore flagged shipping at one rate. Manticore allied systems a differnt rate, systems with specific levels of diplomatic and trade agreements another rate and general traffic yet another. Systems with difficulties with Manticore short of the kind of problems Erwhon had would be another -and seperately indexed- set of rates.
The same kind of thing would apply -adjusted for where and who the terminus holders are- across the known space.
I would suspect that there was some kind of rational basis for setting wormhole fees beyond the arivice of OFS, the Mandarins and various Presidents for Life. Probably something to do with the actual cost of managing and monitoring the wormhole, providing Astro Control service, and a level of income - with a scale above base cost ranged on the mass of ship and cargo (and other things ).

That seems to be a likely end state for many wormholes. Operation Laccoon aside, Manticore seems to operate under the policy that wormholes belong to the system or systems they link. Not outside polities.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:11 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:3) It would appear that somebody like Beowulf would not have been paying fees (nobody has mentioned it) but Beowulf has been protecting it's end of the Sigma Draconis wormhole to the Junction and "has not required or requested" SL assistance or oversight.
I'm pretty sure Beowulf hasn't been collecting OFS fees or SL Federal government fees on transits of their terminus. For one thing they don't technically own it.

It was found by explorers from Manticore and Beowulf did not dispute the right of disoverers to own termini located beyond the edge of system territorial space. And A Rising Thunder states that, instead Beowulf Astro Control leases the terminus from the Manticoran discoverers in order to provide astro control services, warehousing, etc.

So even if Beowulf would be obligated to collect fees on transits of a terminus they owned that shouldn't apply to the Manticoran owned terminus at Beowulf. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if there were required Federal SL fees associated with docking and cargo warehousing that did apply to the Beowulfan owned stations at the leased terminus)
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:00 pm

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dsrseraphin wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:I just found this topic and have not read all 107 previous posts but... excuse me... the war is over???

I did not see where the MA was dealt with and we all know they have been, not only the puppet master behind the curtain of the Solarian League, and OFS but they have their fingers in many other systems pie and they have this long range plan...

Over?? I think now!


The SL v GA hot war is over (let the political and economic scrimmage begin)!!

The MA v GA cold war is definitely not over - just headed to between rounds, while the fighters get their ribs taped, etc.
Both sides are chomping at the bit hoping that they are the one to land the haymaker that ends the conflict for once and for all. Unfortunately (or fortunately from the storyteller's & readers' viewpoint), I get the feeling there are several more rounds to go.

-David S.


David,
Considering that the MA has always been a knife in the back kind of adversary, I would advise the new head of ONI to crank things up till I knew who was most likely to be holding that knife :?

Charlie
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:41 pm

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The oddest thing just occured to me. Now that the war is over, Manticore has the best item in the Universe to pay for any debt or reparations -

Junction Transit Credit Vouchers.

You feel you were hurt because we took over your wormhole during Laocoon - fine. Here is a stack of transit vouchers, negotiable by any entity using the junction. Sell them to whoever.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:54 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Theemile wrote:The oddest thing just occured to me. Now that the war is over, Manticore has the best item in the Universe to pay for any debt or reparations -

Junction Transit Credit Vouchers.

You feel you were hurt because we took over your wormhole during Laocoon - fine. Here is a stack of transit vouchers, negotiable by any entity using the junction. Sell them to whoever.



I have not read UNCOMPROMISING HONOR yet but understand that Honor Harrington and Queen Elizebeth not to mention Protector Benjamin and Beawulf DO NOT demand war reparations. However; I would think that they are morally entitled to send in raiding forces with bulk cargo ships to dismember the orbital manufacturing infrastructure of selected SL worlds and cart it home to help rebuild.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by dsrseraphin   » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:44 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
...

Despite the name change, I don't think Manticore really intends to build an empire - at least not on the scale the Solarian League did. While Manticore may need to temporarily help newly-independent systems get themselves set up, they're more likely to let them go their own way as soon as they are able. If the RMN starts downsizing some in the near future, many of those half-pay officers may well end up as loaners helping newly independent systems set up navies and customs patrols of their own.

...



Weather or not Manitcore intends to be a bona fide Empire is actually irrelevant. Nature, especially the Human settled portion of it, abhors a (power) vacuum!

Politically there has ALWAYS been a dominant polity within a given region of human settlement. Now that the neobarb Manties have exposed the Solly empire as naked, somebody has to step up and be the dominant one.

Don't forget that the MA initiated the whole fracas so that it could be kingpin. The MA now wants to not only be The Empire but wants it over the dead body of Manticore - not the GA, Manticore specifically. So if Manticore is to survive it will have to beat MA to death and when it does it will already be on the back of the Imperial Tiger.

Dominant polities have multiple ways to achieve and hold on to their dominance. Post WWII Pax Americana was achieved by a deliberate pushes in military affairs, economic affairs, and cultural affairs. Pax Britannia was achieved the same way. England made favorable nation treaties at the end of a cannon; America did it by treaty and loans.

My suggestion that the GA encourage the creation of a Junction Network Treaty Organization is for the same reason US & UK fostered the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. There will be jockeying in the Verge and among the splinters of the League, some rogue polities will develop and the MA will be out there brewing trouble. So just like the US & UK found themselves after WWII with a destabilized Europe and a grasping resurgent USSR; the GA finds itself with a destabilized League AND a cold war opponent in the MA; an opponent that has superior tech in some areas, ready made proxies, and a deployed covert action network!

The really interesting thing is NATO achieved its goal without a general war - the USSR is no more; and NATO persist, admitting nations that are over the horizon far from the North Atlantic.

Creating a Junction Network Treaty Organization would play to the implied goal of the Harrington Doctrine, nurturing independent polities that cooperate with each other and with the GA, while reducing the need to empire build by anyone that joins the treaty org. Only fools want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Once the Junction Network Treaty Organization gets set up, it would be advantageous for Manticore to allow 'mission creep' once pirating heats up, by allowing the treaty org to do convoy duty. The resultant benefits to the GA are: not being accused of pushing warships into intra-national or international space; not having to spend money on maintaining the patrols; and it can sell 'export' versions of frigates & destroyers; all the while looking like the benevolent partner that the say they are.

Manticore may not be in the empire building business but it or the GA will be dragooned into it unless it sets up a straw-man to build the empire around. A junction network treaty organization will win 'hearts & minds' better than direct navy patrols or naked economic favoritism. It also simplifies a potentially complex political landscape.

One last thing, as I said the network should start with those junctions that were affected by Lacoon 2, that does not include the junctions in the GA because they were already in 'owned' by GA members and there was no need to take them over.

-David S.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by tlb   » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:46 pm

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Theemile wrote:The oddest thing just occured to me. Now that the war is over, Manticore has the best item in the Universe to pay for any debt or reparations -

Junction Transit Credit Vouchers.

You feel you were hurt because we took over your wormhole during Laocoon - fine. Here is a stack of transit vouchers, negotiable by any entity using the junction. Sell them to whoever.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I have not read UNCOMPROMISING HONOR yet but understand that Honor Harrington and Queen Elizebeth not to mention Protector Benjamin and Beawulf DO NOT demand war reparations. However; I would think that they are morally entitled to send in raiding forces with bulk cargo ships to dismember the orbital manufacturing infrastructure of selected SL worlds and cart it home to help rebuild.

They are NOT morally entitled to grab stuff not specified in the peace treaty; so neither side is going to be paying reparations. Manticore is going to be fine with its transit fees and has no intention of stirring up additional trouble; considering that the Malign is still out there. The history of reparations is not a basis for thinking that they are a good idea.
I do not understand how people could not accept that there was a malign group out there, because it required that they not think about the Yawata Strike at all. The SLN knew that they did not do it and no one believed that it could be Haven; so "who was responsible" should have been a question that occupied policy makers.

ps. You have not read it yet?!
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:00 pm

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tlb wrote:ps. You have not read it yet?!

Not everyone is in a position to buy the hardcover when it comes out or has the inclination or capability to read it electronically. And of course Weber books tend to take two full years to come out in paperback.

I know in the past I've been in the position where I had to wait until the local library got their copy in. I eventually bought them all anyway, but the price differential does matter to some people.
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Re: [SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .
Post by tlb   » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:51 pm

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tlb wrote:You have not read it yet?!

Galactic Sapper wrote:Not everyone is in a position to buy the hardcover when it comes out or has the inclination or capability to read it electronically. And of course Weber books tend to take two full years to come out in paperback.

I know in the past I've been in the position where I had to wait until the local library got their copy in. I eventually bought them all anyway, but the price differential does matter to some people.

I was only expressing surprise that TFLYTSNBN had not read it yet. I realize that not everyone can do everything at once, but this is a Spoiler thread.
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