Where's Haven?

ldwechsler wrote:

Louis R wrote:There's also the fact that the Havenites learned most of their tricks from the SLN, or at least Technodyne. Now, they've taken what they learned places the SLN hasn't yet imagined, but they're still not going to come completely out of the blue the way some of what the Manties do has. That will make a noticeable difference in both offensive and defensive capability.

The big advantage the RHN ought to have in a stand-up fight with the SLN is that equipping them with RMN RDs should just be a matter of loading them into stores and installing software to read the signals, since they already have a lower-grade FTL system deployed [the big challenge would be generating high data-rate signals, not reading them with shipboard sensors]. If that was done, the Havenites are quite capable of coming up with Apollo Lite on their own even if nobody thinks to mention the idea to them.

Since I doubt that anybody has downgraded the Mars engineering suite in the process of fixing the power plants, they should still have that massive pod capacity, and Apollo Lite would give them the ability to ream an SLN formation from just outside Cataphract range even using their own MDMs. I'd say they can safely go up against 2 or 3:1 odds even in BCs, provided they have the logistics support to make those pods available when needed.

Supposedly later flights (and refits of existing) Warlords and Mars lost some offensive firepower for more defenses (both CMs and PDLCs. Haven never developed EDMs or Cruiser weight MDMs or DDMs that we were told of, no offbore launchers, and the SD MDMs were huge beasts. Any Warlord or Mars would have no problem fending off a SLN analogue's firepower, but their missile's would be lower ranged, and slower, with better penaids and more hitting power.

I wouldn't be overly afraid of an SLN ship in a Havenite ship, but I wouldn't want to take them on at more than a 1:1 ratio.

Theemile wrote:
Supposedly later flights (and refits of existing) Warlords and Mars lost some offensive firepower for more defenses (both CMs and PDLCs. Haven never developed EDMs or Cruiser weight MDMs or DDMs that we were told of, no offbore launchers, and the SD MDMs were huge beasts. Any Warlord or Mars would have no problem fending off a SLN analogue's firepower, but their missile's would be lower ranged, and slower, with better penaids and more hitting power.

I wouldn't be overly afraid of an SLN ship in a Havenite ship, but I wouldn't want to take them on at more than a 1:1 ratio.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Supposedly later flights (and refits of existing) Warlords and Mars lost some offensive firepower for more defenses (both CMs and PDLCs. Haven never developed EDMs or Cruiser weight MDMs or DDMs that we were told of, no offbore launchers, and the SD MDMs were huge beasts. Any Warlord or Mars would have no problem fending off a SLN analogue's firepower, but their missile's would be lower ranged, and slower, with better penaids and more hitting power.

I wouldn't be overly afraid of an SLN ship in a Havenite ship, but I wouldn't want to take them on at more than a 1:1 ratio.

Though they did have a mutual defense treaty and apparently some tech sharing with Erewhon during the ceasefire period. We know Erewhon had ERM tech from Manticore (though not DDM/MDM) and they probably shared that with Haven.

So I wouldn't be at all surprised if Haven did have ERM cruiser weight missiles and their newest builds could fire them. (It'd probably be a major refit to reequip older cruisers to handle them, but sticking in a somewhat larger diameter missile tube isn't a big deal in a new build unit).

Of course that still has them at a range disadvantage against a Cataphract equipped force - but not nearly so badly as if they still had old unimproved SDMs.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:If you read IN THE SERVICE OF THE SWORD (and not just for the shower scene) Erowhen had requested RMN help because their CAs were getting their asses kicked. The help was a Saganami B suggesting that Erowhen had nothing like it.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:If you read IN THE SERVICE OF THE SWORD (and not just for the shower scene) Erowhen had requested RMN help because their CAs were getting their asses kicked. The help was a Saganami B suggesting that Erowhen had nothing like it.

Galactic Sapper wrote: Quite the contrary. Although we only get Oversteegan's perspective on it, he's clear that Erewhon should not have needed any help dealing with ordinary pirates, and that the ship they lost was a destroyer. While it's doubtful an Erewonese CA (probably a Star Knight or similar) would have been able to take four SL CAs, one on one they would have had a reasonable chance. The problem the Erewonese had is that they didn't know where they'd lost the destroyer.

"As nearly as I can tell," he continued, "our mission is intended primarily t' hold Erewhon's hand. Logically, there's nothin' much a single heavy cruiser can do that the entire Erewhonese Navy shouldn't be able t' do even better. However, there's been a persistent perception on the part of Erewhon and certain other members of the Alliance—" his eyes cut ever so briefly in Abigail's direction "—that they're no longer valued since the cease-fire. Our mission is t' demonstrate t' Erewhon that we do indeed place great value on our alliance with them by offerin' whatever assistance we can. Although, if I were the Erewhonese, I believe I would probably be somewhat more impressed by the deployment of a destroyer flotilla or at least a division of light cruisers than by that of a single heavy cruiser. We, after all, can be in only one place at one time. And as all of our experience in Silesia should indicate, what's really needed t' suppress piracy is a widespread presence, not individual units, however powerful."

tlb wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:If you read IN THE SERVICE OF THE SWORD (and not just for the shower scene) Erowhen had requested RMN help because their CAs were getting their asses kicked. The help was a Saganami B suggesting that Erowhen had nothing like it.

Galactic Sapper wrote: Quite the contrary. Although we only get Oversteegan's perspective on it, he's clear that Erewhon should not have needed any help dealing with ordinary pirates, and that the ship they lost was a destroyer. While it's doubtful an Erewonese CA (probably a Star Knight or similar) would have been able to take four SL CAs, one on one they would have had a reasonable chance. The problem the Erewonese had is that they didn't know where they'd lost the destroyer.

Here is a quote from Oversteegen:

"As nearly as I can tell," he continued, "our mission is intended primarily t' hold Erewhon's hand. Logically, there's nothin' much a single heavy cruiser can do that the entire Erewhonese Navy shouldn't be able t' do even better. However, there's been a persistent perception on the part of Erewhon and certain other members of the Alliance—" his eyes cut ever so briefly in Abigail's direction "—that they're no longer valued since the cease-fire. Our mission is t' demonstrate t' Erewhon that we do indeed place great value on our alliance with them by offerin' whatever assistance we can. Although, if I were the Erewhonese, I believe I would probably be somewhat more impressed by the deployment of a destroyer flotilla or at least a division of light cruisers than by that of a single heavy cruiser. We, after all, can be in only one place at one time. And as all of our experience in Silesia should indicate, what's really needed t' suppress piracy is a widespread presence, not individual units, however powerful."

TFLYTSNBN wrote:If you read IN THE SERVICE OF THE SWORD (and not just for the shower scene) Erowhen had requested RMN help because their CAs were getting their asses kicked. The help was a Saganami B suggesting that Erowhen had nothing like it.

Galactic Sapper wrote: Quite the contrary. Although we only get Oversteegan's perspective on it, he's clear that Erewhon should not have needed any help dealing with ordinary pirates, and that the ship they lost was a destroyer. While it's doubtful an Erewonese CA (probably a Star Knight or similar) would have been able to take four SL CAs, one on one they would have had a reasonable chance. The problem the Erewonese had is that they didn't know where they'd lost the destroyer.

tlb wrote:Here is a quote from Oversteegen:

"As nearly as I can tell," he continued, "our mission is intended primarily t' hold Erewhon's hand. Logically, there's nothin' much a single heavy cruiser can do that the entire Erewhonese Navy shouldn't be able t' do even better. However, there's been a persistent perception on the part of Erewhon and certain other members of the Alliance—" his eyes cut ever so briefly in Abigail's direction "—that they're no longer valued since the cease-fire. Our mission is t' demonstrate t' Erewhon that we do indeed place great value on our alliance with them by offerin' whatever assistance we can. Although, if I were the Erewhonese, I believe I would probably be somewhat more impressed by the deployment of a destroyer flotilla or at least a division of light cruisers than by that of a single heavy cruiser. We, after all, can be in only one place at one time. And as all of our experience in Silesia should indicate, what's really needed t' suppress piracy is a widespread presence, not individual units, however powerful."

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

And as all of our experience in Silesia should indicate, what's really needed t' suppress piracy is a widespread presence, not individual units, however powerful.

And a flotilla of Destroyers would have gotten their little asses kicked, unless the Destroyers were Rollands.

tlb wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:And a flotilla of Destroyers would have gotten their little asses kicked, unless the Destroyers were Rollands.

Quite right, so it is fortunate for the narrative that the big cruiser was sent instead. All that was known was that an Erewhon destroyer had gone missing while searching for the refuge ship, but that did imply that the pirates might be better armed than usual.
PS. Please excuse my messing with your quote structure.

munroburton wrote:Hmm, not a bet I would take. My guess is it would've taken as few as eight Culverins to do what Gauntlet did. Takes longer and likely losing several destroyers in the process, but the RMN was quite diligent about keeping aging ships updated.

Those DDs would have almost, if not the same, quality anti-missile defenses, decoys and so forth. They're tougher than their age would imply, certainly against ex-SLN hardware.

Jonathan_S wrote:

munroburton wrote:Hmm, not a bet I would take. My guess is it would've taken as few as eight Culverins to do what Gauntlet did. Takes longer and likely losing several destroyers in the process, but the RMN was quite diligent about keeping aging ships updated.

Those DDs would have almost, if not the same, quality anti-missile defenses, decoys and so forth. They're tougher than their age would imply, certainly against ex-SLN hardware.

That's probably an bit overoptimistic. Destroyers are pretty fragil ships compared to CAs so anything that got through is likely to cripple one.

But worse a squadron of destoyers would probably be dispersed into pair or fewer since normaly the problem with pirates is finding them in the first place. A concentrated destroyer squadron doesn't have much more sensor reach than a single DD - you have to disperse them to get good coverage (but then they're vulnerable to defeat in detail - not normally a problem against pirates).