[Spoilers] Axelrod and the Manticore Wormhole Junction

So, I have all the books, and have read them. That said, there is still one that item that continues to bug me heavily.

1) What exactly was Axelrod's plan really supposed to accomplish, that it could not from bringing the existence of the MWJ to Manticore and negotiating a control or favored relationship with the young entity? Due to their relative positions of strength, Axelrod would have had a very good bargaining position to work with.

2) Why did Llyn and Axelrod choose to employ Gensonne's mercs to conquer the system, rather than employ it to give strength to Axelrod's bargaining position? Why commit those kind of resources when there could have been more less cost intensive methods?

3) Is Axelrod acting here as an NGO? Or as a megacorporation/corporation/business? What is driving its actions? Profit? Something else?

I know what happens by Canon, but I really would like to understand it. From all of the parties involved.

russdm wrote:So, I have all the books, and have read them. That said, there is still one that item that continues to bug me heavily.

1) What exactly was Axelrod's plan really supposed to accomplish, that it could not from bringing the existence of the MWJ to Manticore and negotiating a control or favored relationship with the young entity? Due to their relative positions of strength, Axelrod would have had a very good bargaining position to work with.

2) Why did Llyn and Axelrod choose to employ Gensonne's mercs to conquer the system, rather than employ it to give strength to Axelrod's bargaining position? Why commit those kind of resources when there could have been more less cost intensive methods?

3) Is Axelrod acting here as an NGO? Or as a megacorporation/corporation/business? What is driving its actions? Profit? Something else?

I know what happens by Canon, but I really would like to understand it. From all of the parties involved.

It's easy, it's called why have a slice when I can get the whole pie.

Read up on the Zunker incident and what the Huamptman cartel would've received for discovering the Torch WHJ

saber964 wrote:

russdm wrote:So, I have all the books, and have read them. That said, there is still one that item that continues to bug me heavily.

1) What exactly was Axelrod's plan really supposed to accomplish, that it could not from bringing the existence of the MWJ to Manticore and negotiating a control or favored relationship with the young entity? Due to their relative positions of strength, Axelrod would have had a very good bargaining position to work with.

2) Why did Llyn and Axelrod choose to employ Gensonne's mercs to conquer the system, rather than employ it to give strength to Axelrod's bargaining position? Why commit those kind of resources when there could have been more less cost intensive methods?

3) Is Axelrod acting here as an NGO? Or as a megacorporation/corporation/business? What is driving its actions? Profit? Something else?

I know what happens by Canon, but I really would like to understand it. From all of the parties involved.

It's easy, it's called why have a slice when I can get the whole pie.

Read up on the Zunker incident and what the Huamptman cartel would've received for discovering the Torch WHJ

The way Axelrod went about it, it's more like a slice of pie versus the whole bakery.

Instead of sharing the income, Axelrod would have gotten all of the MWJ income themselves and gotten three exploitable planetary economies in the bargain.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Instead of sharing the income, Axelrod would have gotten all of the MWJ income themselves and gotten three exploitable planetary economies in the bargain.

I am really, really convinced that the evolution of extremely low cost, FTL interstellar travel was a disaster for the Honorverse.

With STL ships, you can establish colonies only at great cost and without any hope of exploiting them economically. There is almost no way that the youg colony could afford to refurbish and refuel the starship to send home anything valuable. If profit is the motive, just put the resources into developing your home system. The colonies can then evolve, to either flourish or fail, without external interference except laser or radio messages.

If Earth or earlier, far more mature colonies are feeling genocidal, they can destroy colonies by launching starships that keep accellerating but don't dedellerate, programed to impact the target planet. With the limited resources of an undeveloped colony, interception is nearly impossible. Even Sol might find it difficult to intercept a Tau near zero torchship. However; there is no obvious benefit in launching such an attack except as a preemptive strike.

The hyperdrive and the Warasawki sail make conquest feasible and potentially profitable. You can get to a colony at reasonable cost within a human life time. Assuming that the conquering system is technologically more advanced than the conquered, conquest of hundreds of millions of people by a few thousand is feasible. You can either conquer and ship home the loot or you can conquer and set yourself up as emperor with your crew as the new aristocracy. Not certain how much loot a technologically backward system could have that would be worth shipping home.

Given the unimaginable mineral resources accessible in asteroid belts and the capabilities of automated manufacturing in the Honorverse, it remains difficult to understand why one people would find it profitable to conquer their neighbors.

The only possibillities would be some neo-Marxist state whose people had become to lazy to produce anything for themselves except warships or religious psychopaths out to impose their theooogy on others. Oh! Weber has written about that? Silly me.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Given the unimaginable mineral resources accessible in asteroid belts and the capabilities of automated manufacturing in the Honorverse, it remains difficult to understand why one people would find it profitable to conquer their neighbors.

The only possibillities would be some neo-Marxist state whose people had become to lazy to produce anything for themselves except warships or religious psychopaths out to impose their theooogy on others. Oh! Weber has written about that? Silly me.

There are always those who want control. There are always those who find it easier to take what others have than build their own. Those two traits are independent of ideology.

We've seen feudal capitalists building empires in the verge via practices used by historical trading companies. We've seen pirates who just want stuff. We've seen folks who want to build a new model human and enforce that. We've seen corrupt cultures dependent on conquest to prop up an economy. We've seen religious, political, and quasi-religious ideologies who view control as necessary across the political spectrum.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:Instead of sharing the income, Axelrod would have gotten all of the MWJ income themselves and gotten three exploitable planetary economies in the bargain.

I am really, really convinced that the evolution of extremely low cost, FTL interstellar travel was a disaster for the Honorverse.

With STL ships, you can establish colonies only at great cost and without any hope of exploiting them economically. There is almost no way that the youg colony could afford to refurbish and refuel the starship to send home anything valuable. If profit is the motive, just put the resources into developing your home system. The colonies can then evolve, to either flourish or fail, without external interference except laser or radio messages.

If Earth or earlier, far more mature colonies are feeling genocidal, they can destroy colonies by launching starships that keep accellerating but don't dedellerate, programed to impact the target planet. With the limited resources of an undeveloped colony, interception is nearly impossible. Even Sol might find it difficult to intercept a Tau near zero torchship. However; there is no obvious benefit in launching such an attack except as a preemptive strike.

The hyperdrive and the Warasawki sail make conquest feasible and potentially profitable. You can get to a colony at reasonable cost within a human life time. Assuming that the conquering system is technologically more advanced than the conquered, conquest of hundreds of millions of people by a few thousand is feasible. You can either conquer and ship home the loot or you can conquer and set yourself up as emperor with your crew as the new aristocracy. Not certain how much loot a technologically backward system could have that would be worth shipping home.

Given the unimaginable mineral resources accessible in asteroid belts and the capabilities of automated manufacturing in the Honorverse, it remains difficult to understand why one people would find it profitable to conquer their neighbors.

The only possibillities would be some neo-Marxist state whose people had become to lazy to produce anything for themselves except warships or religious psychopaths out to impose their theooogy on others. Oh! Weber has written about that? Silly me.

I'm told that BuNine has the task of rationalizing the Honorverse, but they've never managed to make the economic model work. Other stuff, yes. The economic model? Not that I've heard.

The abuses of OFS and the Transtellers are somewhat analogous to the US conquering Haiti so that we can plunder the so called "economy."

The MWJ is one of the few resources in the Honorverse worth conquering. I am amazed that the there was any argument in King Roger's time against acquiring at least a squadron of modern for the day BBs, DNs or SDs.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:The abuses of OFS and the Transtellers are somewhat analogous to the US conquering Haiti so that we can plunder the so called "economy."

The MWJ is one of the few resources in the Honorverse worth conquering. I am amazed that the there was any argument in King Roger's time against acquiring at least a squadron of modern for the day BBs, DNs or SDs.

Probably a better analogy would be Spain and Britain and their New World colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Here, let me explain.

Step 1: collect underpants
Step 2:
Step 3: profit

Any questions?