Languages, Frontier Fleet and the dissolution of the SL

The thread on the Maya Sector got me thinking about languages in the Honorverse. The accounts of colonization suggest that at least in the early diaspora, most systems were settled by small groups (a few 1,000s to 100,000s) of dissidents with destinctive religious (Grayson) or political (Manticore) beliefs. The portrayal of the Andermandi Empire suggests ethnic Chinese being governed by ethnic Germans with perhaps dual or even dueling languages of German and Chinese. The portrayal of Haven suggests that the early colonists spoke French. As a consequence, it would seem that given a few centuries of isolation during the pre hyperdrive and even pre Warsawki sail eras, one language would become predominant in each, isolated system and planet. Furthermore; during the early centuries of isolation, the predominant language on each planet would evolve into a very distinct dialect. Consider how ancient Latin has evolved into modern Italian, Spanish and Portugese. The influences of different minority languages amongst the colonists would encourage such evolution. Computers, books and other records would slow linguistic evolution, but not stop it. Eventually, as colonies such as Beawulf and Haven spawned daughter colonies, groups of systems with a common language would be formed.

Obviously; skilled linguists assisted by Honorverse computers (which appear to be miniturized mechanical analog devices LOL) will not have difficulty translating these individual languages and writing translation programs. Trade and diplomacy will be largely unaffected.

Consider the consequences for Frontier Fleet or even Battle Fleet as well as the Office of Frontier Security recuiting from the Shell and Verge systems. Translation programs are wonderful, but you can not command a fleet or a ship, nor can you command a platoon or an army if people speak a multitude of languages. Given the sheer size of the Solarian League, it might be impractical for the SLN and OFS to ship all of their recruits back to Sol system for training and language emersion. My suspicion is that the SLN and may be OFS maintain a multitude of service academies in various regions where recruits would be taught some common language but the local dialects would be embraced. Individual ship or task force crews would ve recruitedfrom these local acedemies. Intervention battalions might be recruited from individual planets for occupation of other, diverse planets so that their destinctive language and culture could prevent bonding with the locals and enable brutality.

The bottom line is that local Frontier Fleet and OFS units in the Fringe, Verge and Shell worlds might be comprised of people with their own languages and cultures that are destinct from the SL core worlds. This destinctiveness would encourage and enable seccessionist conspiracies.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:The thread on the Maya Sector got me thinking about languages in the Honorverse. The accounts of colonization suggest that at least in the early diaspora, most systems were settled by small groups (a few 1,000s to 100,000s) of dissidents with destinctive religious (Grayson) or political (Manticore) beliefs. The portrayal of the Andermandi Empire suggests ethnic Chinese being governed by ethnic Germans with perhaps dual or even dueling languages of German and Chinese. The portrayal of Haven suggests that the early colonists spoke French. As a consequence, it would seem that given a few centuries of isolation during the pre hyperdrive and even pre Warsawki sail eras, one language would become predominant in each, isolated system and planet. Furthermore; during the early centuries of isolation, the predominant language on each planet would evolve into a very distinct dialect. Consider how ancient Latin has evolved into modern Italian, Spanish and Portugese. The influences of different minority languages amongst the colonists would encourage such evolution. Computers, books and other records would slow linguistic evolution, but not stop it. Eventually, as colonies such as Beawulf and Haven spawned daughter colonies, groups of systems with a common language would be formed.

Obviously; skilled linguists assisted by Honorverse computers (which appear to be miniturized mechanical analog devices LOL) will not have difficulty translating these individual languages and writing translation programs. Trade and diplomacy will be largely unaffected.

Consider the consequences for Frontier Fleet or even Battle Fleet as well as the Office of Frontier Security recuiting from the Shell and Verge systems. Translation programs are wonderful, but you can not command a fleet or a ship, nor can you command a platoon or an army if people speak a multitude of languages. Given the sheer size of the Solarian League, it might be impractical for the SLN and OFS to ship all of their recruits back to Sol system for training and language emersion. My suspicion is that the SLN and may be OFS maintain a multitude of service academies in various regions where recruits would be taught some common language but the local dialects would be embraced. Individual ship or task force crews would ve recruitedfrom these local acedemies. Intervention battalions might be recruited from individual planets for occupation of other, diverse planets so that their destinctive language and culture could prevent bonding with the locals and enable brutality.

The bottom line is that local Frontier Fleet and OFS units in the Fringe, Verge and Shell worlds might be comprised of people with their own languages and cultures that are destinct from the SL core worlds. This destinctiveness would encourage and enable seccessionist conspiracies.

RFC has decided that everyone in the Honorverse speaks Standard English, at least to the extent that everyone in the US speaks Standard American English. Clearly, not everyone does, but if you want to deal outside of your little enclave, you will learn Standard American English at least to the extent that people are not rolling in the aisles laughing at you.

That said, a good look at the colonial period could be enlightening or possibly sobering. The colonizers (e.g. OFS, etc.) are unbelievably arrogant in not learning the local language. In fact, there's a phrase for people who get too close to the people: "going native." It's not a career enhancer.

This is arguable. The various Persian empires were actually rather good at running multilingual armies. The Romans were no slouches either. In fact by the late Imperial period fluency in Latin wasn't essential even at senior command level - it's said that several 3rd-century Emperors were, shall we say, rustic in their speech. As were several 4th- & 5th-century magistri militum. Many of them seem to have gotten the job done.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:< snip >
Consider the consequences for Frontier Fleet or even Battle Fleet as well as the Office of Frontier Security recuiting from the Shell and Verge systems. Translation programs are wonderful, but you can not command a fleet or a ship, nor can you command a platoon or an army if people speak a multitude of languages.

Louis R wrote:This is arguable. The various Persian empires were actually rather good at running multilingual armies. The Romans were no slouches either. In fact by the late Imperial period fluency in Latin wasn't essential even at senior command level - it's said that several 3rd-century Emperors were, shall we say, rustic in their speech. As were several 4th- & 5th-century magistri militum. Many of them seem to have gotten the job done.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:< snip >
Consider the consequences for Frontier Fleet or even Battle Fleet as well as the Office of Frontier Security recuiting from the Shell and Verge systems. Translation programs are wonderful, but you can not command a fleet or a ship, nor can you command a platoon or an army if people speak a multitude of languages.

Note that a standard, more or less, language is necessary for most people who do trade. It is taught in schools.

Compare it to English. There are few places on Earth where no one speaks the language. It is by far the most popular second language. In Europe, just about all kids take it as part of their schooling and do it early.

RFC uses this as a way of simplifying his books. I agree. It's tough enough keeping track of the different nationality through names.

Louis R wrote:This is arguable. The various Persian empires were actually rather good at running multilingual armies. The Romans were no slouches either. In fact by the late Imperial period fluency in Latin wasn't essential even at senior command level - it's said that several 3rd-century Emperors were, shall we say, rustic in their speech. As were several 4th- & 5th-century magistri militum. Many of them seem to have gotten the job done.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:< snip >
Consider the consequences for Frontier Fleet or even Battle Fleet as well as the Office of Frontier Security recuiting from the Shell and Verge systems. Translation programs are wonderful, but you can not command a fleet or a ship, nor can you command a platoon or an army if people speak a multitude of languages.

The evolution of a Roman, multilingual army in which soldiers, Centurions and even officers did NOT speak Latin coincides with the various revolts that culminated in the sacking of Rome and the collapse of the empire.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

Louis R wrote:This is arguable. The various Persian empires were actually rather good at running multilingual armies. The Romans were no slouches either. In fact by the late Imperial period fluency in Latin wasn't essential even at senior command level - it's said that several 3rd-century Emperors were, shall we say, rustic in their speech. As were several 4th- & 5th-century magistri militum. Many of them seem to have gotten the job done.


SNIP

The evolution of a Roman, multilingual army in which soldiers, Centurions and even officers did NOT speak Latin coincides with the various revolts that culminated in the sacking of Rome and the collapse of the empire.

There were revolts & 'hostile takeovers' throughout the time of the empire, e.g year of the 4 emperors in 69AD.

I got the impression that it was mostly the pre-warshawski sail colonization that was isolated groups moving far away, and out of contact with, from everybody else.

I suspect the majority of colonies were from the later period where you do have ongoing (though infrequent) contact with neighbors via tramp freighters. That would tend to keep languages from drifting as much - especially once Common because the trade and technical language of the majority of the known universe.

(Certainly any system under OFS's or a transtellar's thumb seems likely to be forced to adopt Common as their official language to make the job of the outsiders ordering them about easier)

Jonathan_S wrote:I got the impression that it was mostly the pre-warshawski sail colonization that was isolated groups moving far away, and out of contact with, from everybody else.

I suspect the majority of colonies were from the later period where you do have ongoing (though infrequent) contact with neighbors via tramp freighters. That would tend to keep languages from drifting as much - especially once Common because the trade and technical language of the majority of the known universe.

(Certainly any system under OFS's or a transtellar's thumb seems likely to be forced to adopt Common as their official language to make the job of the outsiders ordering them about easier)

The real point is that RFC wanted to get to the stories, the plot, instead of mucking around with translations, etc.

Jonathan_S wrote:I got the impression that it was mostly the pre-warshawski sail colonization that was isolated groups moving far away, and out of contact with, from everybody else.

I suspect the majority of colonies were from the later period where you do have ongoing (though infrequent) contact with neighbors via tramp freighters. That would tend to keep languages from drifting as much - especially once Common because the trade and technical language of the majority of the known universe.

(Certainly any system under OFS's or a transtellar's thumb seems likely to be forced to adopt Common as their official language to make the job of the outsiders ordering them about easier)

Any system in which the libraries, paper and video, are intact is likely to have a language that tends to stop changing. Yes, there are occasional changes; over my seven decades I have noted several, and they grate in my ear.

ldwechsler wrote:

Louis R wrote:This is arguable. The various Persian empires were actually rather good at running multilingual armies. The Romans were no slouches either. In fact by the late Imperial period fluency in Latin wasn't essential even at senior command level - it's said that several 3rd-century Emperors were, shall we say, rustic in their speech. As were several 4th- & 5th-century magistri militum. Many of them seem to have gotten the job done.


Note that a standard, more or less, language is necessary for most people who do trade. It is taught in schools.

Compare it to English. There are few places on Earth where no one speaks the language. It is by far the most popular second language. In Europe, just about all kids take it as part of their schooling and do it early.

RFC uses this as a way of simplifying his books. I agree. It's tough enough keeping track of the different nationality through names.

The French Foreign Legion teaches enough French to get out of basic, then requires further skills development.