What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

Bill, you can't truly see an economic injection coming to the Verge and Protectorates whose needs will really be massaged by a truly caring GA who sees the big picture - minus the greed? Isn't one of the benefits of capturing a system the ability to correct the mismanagement?

You can't see profits and business ventures soaring from the dispelling of OFS? I imagine trade with the SEM was stifled in some areas because of OFS - who most likely took their cut off the top, minus any financial commitments to other entities like Manticore. I can imagine situations where potentially lucrative business ventures were ignored because of the red tape and meddling of OFS . . .

"Why should we even bother?"

cthia wrote:

Bill Woods wrote: "New markets"? For centuries, Manticore has been getting rich off tolls on the traffic through the Junction.

I imagine they will continue to do so.

Yes, new markets. As I've opined upstream, I doubt the League's arrogance and greed could truly grasp the stifling effect their policies had on their own members. When you dictate the "what, why and how," you potentially kill or dilute a business' motivation and creativity. You kill markets. You kill member's banding/merging together to create totally new markets never before possible for one polity for various reasons. Much like the strength of two companies merging here in the states and becoming vastly more competitive and powerful. Yes, I can conceive of newer, much stronger markets opening in the Verge, Protectorates and even Core Worlds (eyes opened and wanting a piece of the pie) that will make earning potential - not just for the SEM, but for everyone involved - shoot through the roof.

Both of you are thinking of new markets for what the protectorates export. However, has anyone truly considered what the SEM's primary export is? It's not technology or even material exports or IP. No, the principle export for the SEM is money.

That's right, the SEM has massive capital inflows from their WHJ fees and the centuries of investments outside the SKM/SEM. Those capital inflows are too great to be readily absorbed in the SEM's economy. They must lend/invest those funds outside the SEM. The Protectorates have been starved for investment capital for centuries. Their SL Transtellar License holders have sucked up any profits from those systems' economies to prevent capital investment beyond some point that most benefits the Transtellar. That suggests the systems' economies of the individual protectorates have some base level of production capacity that is effective at producing excess items needed by Core Worlds (sold by the treanstellar), but not items the the local system needs to become self sufficient. That arugues for the protectorates to be built around export items their transtellar has a market for but also with artificially maintained gaps in their industrial base. Those gaps need investments to fill.

The SEM investment strategy had been to finance Core World needs via Beowulf and the Core World SL and Core World indies. The number of finance customers will have shrunk after Honor blew the SLN to dust bunnies. They will need to find other markets for their chief export and the Protectorates are the biggest market there is for capital investment. A market that has just been released from their bondage to OFS and those transtellar license holder clients of OFS.

Those Protectorates and emerging Verge systems are what the SEM truly needs from defeating the SL. They have to replace their customers for their continuously increasing pile of excess capital from the WHJ. The alternative is to end up like Spain trying to absorb the New World gold influx. Lizzybeth is WAY too smart to let that happen.

cthia wrote:Looking at one of the maps, I've got a question. During the cold war between the SLN and the GA, was it better for the GA to quickly gain access to the Verge by using the indirect route of . . .

Manticore to Terra Haute to Erewhon to Joshua?

Instead of by Beowulf, directly into the heart of League space? Or am I missing something?

map1 and map2.

Looking at maps.

Can you say "strategic mobility?"
Can you say "tactical mobility?"

No wonder Case Lacoon was implemented to seize wormhole terminae. Is the SEM and GA reliquishing control after the sack of SOL and ceasation of hostilities or keeping them. I forsee SLN SDs being parted outfor their grasers to create worhole terminae forts.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

cthia wrote:Looking at one of the maps, I've got a question. During the cold war between the SLN and the GA, was it better for the GA to quickly gain access to the Verge by using the indirect route of . . .

Manticore to Terra Haute to Erewhon to Joshua?

Instead of by Beowulf, directly into the heart of League space? Or am I missing something?

map1 and map2.

Looking at maps.

Can you say "strategic mobility?"
Can you say "tactical mobility?"

No wonder Case Lacoon was implemented to seize wormhole terminae. Is the SEM and GA reliquishing control after the sack of SOL and ceasation of hostilities or keeping them. I forsee SLN SDs being parted outfor their grasers to create worhole terminae forts.

Well, if they do relinquish the terminii and the League recovers and fortifies said terminii this go round, things could get interesting and deadly.

United States Space Force (USSF)

It is interesting we humans of the present may be witnessing the birth of a space force with the United States recognition that the real estate in space should be "captured" for strategic defense.

I suppose that things have had a chance to truly settle in the minds of many since the SDI program.

It is most interesting that this force is planned to become a sixth branch of the military, which always touched on a question about the Honorverse. The Navy in the Honorverse seems to be merged into one, instead of naval forces for the planet and naval forces for the galaxy. I've never understood why a planet couldn't at least develop its own navy for local planetary defense instead of having to await the bloody Navy of . . . say, the SLN to arrive and make things bloody worse.

'shrug'

Recent news.

what do you think a system defence force was?

it was simply the SL was so well known as having the biggest most unstoppable fleet in existence that the planetary governments, with only s few exceptions, focused only on things like customs boats or SAR boats for tourists/industry.

why spend trillions on cutting edge navy when as soon as word got out that someone had dared to raid a SL world, then the general (i.e. when it wasn't OFS ordered FF units pretending tobe pirates) outrage at someone daring to hit a SL world would a guarantee a large and very powerful retaliation.

perhaps a better of putting it would be Why does say florida not have it own navy independent of the US Navy? as i understand it nothing prohibits them from a Naval Militia/national guard.

answer becuase it is understood that they are under the protection of the bigger nation fleet which is bigger and so much more badder then what the locals could afford and local politicians don't want to spend the money, when it could be used for dozens of other things.

Dauntless wrote:what do you think a system defence force was?

it was simply the SL was so well known as having the biggest most unstoppable fleet in existence that the planetary governments, with only s few exceptions, focused only on things like customs boats or SAR boats for tourists/industry.

why spend trillions on cutting edge navy when as soon as word got out that someone had dared to raid a SL world, then the general (i.e. when it wasn't OFS ordered FF units pretending tobe pirates) outrage at someone daring to hit a SL world would a guarantee a large and very powerful retaliation.

Well, every planet doesn't have a SDF. Like the planet in SoV that had to await the SLN. I figured a traditional planetary Navy of air breathers would be much cheaper to build and operate than a traditional SDF. And critical in time sensitive situations where response from the SLN comes much too late. In SoV, the government was almost overthrown. Though it deserved it isn't the point. ::shrug 2::

Dauntless wrote:perhaps a better of putting it would be Why does say florida not have it own navy independent of the US Navy? as i understand it nothing prohibits them from a Naval Militia/national guard.

answer becuase it is understood that they are under the protection of the bigger nation fleet which is bigger and so much more badder then what the locals could afford and local politicians don't want to spend the money, when it could be used for dozens of other things.

Using Florida or any American state is a bad analogy because the Navy is not "out-of-system" - is local and a phone call away. Unlike in the Honorverse where the Navy is systems away.

cthia wrote:

Dauntless wrote:what do you think a system defence force was?

it was simply the SL was so well known as having the biggest most unstoppable fleet in existence that the planetary governments, with only s few exceptions, focused only on things like customs boats or SAR boats for tourists/industry.

why spend trillions on cutting edge navy when as soon as word got out that someone had dared to raid a SL world, then the general (i.e. when it wasn't OFS ordered FF units pretending tobe pirates) outrage at someone daring to hit a SL world would a guarantee a large and very powerful retaliation.

Well, every planet doesn't have a SDF. Like the planet in SoV that had to await the SLN. I figured a traditional planetary Navy of air breathers would be much cheaper to build and operate than a traditional SDF. And critical in time sensitive situations where response from the SLN comes much too late. In SoV, the government was almost overthrown. Though it deserved it isn't the point. ::shrug 2::

Protectorates, like those planets in SoV, are not allowed their own SDFs, only full members of the SL are. Even if not mentioned, every member will probably have an SDF of some kind - just sending 50 armed shuttles, 18 LACS and 2 DDs against 96 BCs isn't worth attempting unless your culture values ritual suicide.

We keep mentioning what states do and do not have - but consider local police and emergency forces. My local city has 2 Police helicopters and 3 "Lifeflight" helicopters. The surrounding suburbs, and rural counties surrounding them, do not have said resources. Why? the tax payers cannot afford such luxuries, but also because the city has agreements to assist it's neighbors. My former suburb had a federally funded K-9 unit. It spent less than 25% of it's time in the town, because it was used (as intended) by the neighboring municipalities. Every town did not require their own - they shared the one available, even if it was not immediately at hand.

More importantly, all the local cops and emergency units have reciprocity agreements. They are able to persecute a criminal across borders and can be called for assistance if another town requires it. It allows small towns to have 1 officer on duty at odd hours, but still have a backup for him or respond to other crimes.

If there is a life critical accident at the corner of rural route x and rural road 8, the Lifeflight helicopter will fly out to grab the injured individual, and rush them to the required trauma center. Similarly, the rural hospitals do not have trauma centers - it is inefficient for every hospital to have this capability when larger, centralized hospitals are less then 2 hours away with more capabilities.

Why is all this important? - not everyone can afford everything, and more importantly, why should they when a larger group can offer it to them when they do need it. The helicopter or the K-9 is out of town, but can be there in a short amount of time.