What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

The Battle of Leyte Gulf

Our discussion of the Battle of Guadalcanal, which is codenamed Operation Watchtower, preceded what is called the greatest naval battle in history.

In October 1944, the last major naval battle of the second world war was fought between the United States of America and the Japanese Empire. In the Battle of Leyte Gulf the Imperial Navy tried to destroy the Pacific Fleet and defeat an American invasion of the Phillipines. The result, was the greatest naval battle in history.

At Leyte Gulf 280 warships and 200,000 sailors and airmen fought a series of furious naval engagements by night and by day over a vast area of ocean. There was almost every kind of fighting known in sea warfare. From carrier strikes to full battleship actions. Leyte was also the first battle of the war in which the Japanese used the suicide tactics of the Kamikaze.

For Japan, Leyte Gulf was intended to be the decisive battle which would halt the American advance across the Pacific. In reality, the Japanese Navy's last great gamble would lead to its complete destruction as a fighting force. After Leyte, the US Navy would command the Pacific Ocean and there would be nothing the Japanese Navy could do to save itself from total defeat.

Hopefully, as close as we'll ever come to the Battle of Manticore.

I'm rereading UH and something in the intro to the Hypatia subplot jumps out at me.

Hypatia is a Core World but on the smaller side of the population and size of economy range of SL core worlds. Even so only 12 Protectorates contribute more to the federal budget than this smallish Core World. Thinking about the implications made me think about this thread.

The Protectorates are getting what amounts to the fees Core Worlds pay for their interstellar shipping to the Feds sucked out of their MUCH smaller economies. The value of those economies with those fees retained to circulate back into the Protectorate economy strikes as massive in aggregate and incredibly attractive individually. The value of captured Protectorate systems within some LYs of an SEM controlled WHJ is significant. Any such system that voluntarily joins the GA is likely to contribute to the GA immediately, even the contribute only a fraction of what OFS had extracted annually.

Verge Worlds may well be another matter, but capturged Protectorates are likely very rich prizes as voluntary members of the GA.

PeterZ wrote:I'm rereading UH and something in the intro to the Hypatia subplot jumps out at me.

Hypatia is a Core World but on the smaller side of the population and size of economy range of SL core worlds. Even so only 12 Protectorates contribute more to the federal budget than this smallish Core World. Thinking about the implications made me think about this thread.

The Protectorates are getting what amounts to the fees Core Worlds pay for their interstellar shipping to the Feds sucked out of their MUCH smaller economies. The value of those economies with those fees retained to circulate back into the Protectorate economy strikes as massive in aggregate and incredibly attractive individually. The value of captured Protectorate systems within some LYs of an SEM controlled WHJ is significant. Any such system that voluntarily joins the GA is likely to contribute to the GA immediately, even the contribute only a fraction of what OFS had extracted annually.

Verge Worlds may well be another matter, but capturged Protectorates are likely very rich prizes as voluntary members of the GA.

I'm not doubting the veracity of your post, but I'm wondering how that is true of Hypatia. What is so special about her economy? And if she is so special, why on Sol did the SLN disrespect her so?

And, assuming the veracity of your post, wouldn't inclusion into the GA not only immediately contribute to the GA but inject a dose of steroids into Hypatia's arm? I'm willing to bet the League had no idea how much its policies and hatred for all things Manticoran stifled the economic growth of their own Core Worlds. I'm willing to bet astrographic windfalls like the one you've just mentioned sre going to turn into veritable hotspots of economic boon.

Now isn't that just going to sit well with a disgruntled League with the wealth of Manticorans, coming in and "redeveloping" League space? Setting the stage for the mighty Gorilla - who has later become mean and green - to retake this redeveloped landscape.

Gentle warning over something I have already run into: the fate of Hypatia and other things from UH do not really belong in this thread, because it is not marked for spoilers.

Hypatia either will or won't join the GA. Should it join, it will be an immediate contributor to Alliance. My point was that the Protectorates are already set up to make significant contributions to any alliance. Those fees they are used to paying are not negligible for most protectorate systems. Regional trading networks of those protectorate systems can generate serious levels of economic activity and can afford to support a respectable navy.
I would be surprised if they could set aside a smaller amount than they are used to paying directly or indirectly to OFS and their local Transtellar liscence holder. So, captured protectorate systems are likely vary valuable.

PeterZ wrote:Hypatia either will or won't join the GA. Should it join, it will be an immediate contributor to Alliance. My point was that the Protectorates are already set up to make significant contributions to any alliance. Those fees they are used to paying are not negligible for most protectorate systems. Regional trading networks of those protectorate systems can generate serious levels of economic activity and can afford to support a respectable navy.
I would be surprised if they could set aside a smaller amount than they are used to paying directly or indirectly to OFS and their local Transtellar liscence holder. So, captured protectorate systems are likely vary valuable.

Your research is truly intriguing Peter. By that same notion, Manticore is poised to make a killing on the new markets that will be opening up. Beowulf's termini is the SEM's proboscis which reaches directly into the League, liquefying and sucking up huge profits from these markets. Beowulf is directly poised to make a killing.

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Hypatia either will or won't join the GA. Should it join, it will be an immediate contributor to Alliance. My point was that the Protectorates are already set up to make significant contributions to any alliance. Those fees they are used to paying are not negligible for most protectorate systems. Regional trading networks of those protectorate systems can generate serious levels of economic activity and can afford to support a respectable navy.
I would be surprised if they could set aside a smaller amount than they are used to paying directly or indirectly to OFS and their local Transtellar liscence holder. So, captured protectorate systems are likely vary valuable.

Your research is truly intriguing Peter. By that same notion, Manticore is poised to make a killing on the new markets that will be opening up. Beowulf's termini is the SEM's proboscis which reaches directly into the League, liquefying and sucking up huge profits from these markets. Beowulf is directly poised to make a killing.

Agreed. Beowulf and the other independent Core Worlds, whether members of the GA or not, will act as the central hub for the Protectorate trading blocks across the galaxy. As sure as certain those blocks would prefer trading with indies rather than Sollies or even SLN 2.0 members.

Th more consideration I give this topic, the more convinced I become that the Protectorate trading blocks will resemble the Talbott Quadrant. The block will be built around a WH termini system that is likely a GA member. That GA member will have access to SEM and Beowulf/Core World financing. All those networks will become wealthy and powerful over time and act as counterbalances to the GA becoming OFS.

Looking at one of the maps, I've got a question. During the cold war between the SLN and the GA, was it better for the GA to quickly gain access to the Verge by using the indirect route of . . .

Manticore to Terra Haute to Erewhon to Joshua?

Instead of by Beowulf, directly into the heart of League space? Or am I missing something?

map1 and map2.

cthia wrote:Your research is truly intriguing Peter. By that same notion, Manticore is poised to make a killing on the new markets that will be opening up. Beowulf's termini is the SEM's proboscis which reaches directly into the League, liquefying and sucking up huge profits from these markets. Beowulf is directly poised to make a killing.

"New markets"? For centuries, Manticore has been getting rich off tolls on the traffic through the Junction.

Bill Woods wrote:

cthia wrote:Your research is truly intriguing Peter. By that same notion, Manticore is poised to make a killing on the new markets that will be opening up. Beowulf's termini is the SEM's proboscis which reaches directly into the League, liquefying and sucking up huge profits from these markets. Beowulf is directly poised to make a killing.

"New markets"? For centuries, Manticore has been getting rich off tolls on the traffic through the Junction.

I imagine they will continue to do so.

Yes, new markets. As I've opined upstream, I doubt the League's arrogance and greed could truly grasp the stifling effect their policies had on their own members. When you dictate the "what, why and how," you potentially kill or dilute a business' motivation and creativity. You kill markets. You kill member's banding/merging together to create totally new markets never before possible for one polity for various reasons. Much like the strength of two companies merging here in the states and becoming vastly more competitive and powerful. Yes, I can conceive of newer, much stronger markets opening in the Verge, Protectorates and even Core Worlds (eyes opened and wanting a piece of the pie) that will make earning potential - not just for the SEM, but for everyone involved - shoot through the roof.