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Merlin and Nynian’s “children”

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:14 pm

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Actually, when I started this thread I was less interested in whether it was possible to build another PICA than if it were possible for them to even HAVE virtual kids and if they could, what impact it would have on what it means to be “alive” and “human”.

If a kernel personality were obtained somehow and developed in-virtuo in a simulated real world environment, could it be considered “real” and if so, eventually provided with a PICA-like interface allowing it to go out among the non-virtual humans? And would it be accepted? I think it would be a fascinating intellectual exercise to explore.
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:43 pm

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OrlandoNative wrote:I've always wondered about just *what* "rare materials" those might be. Especially now, when they basically have the run of the entire planet of Safehold other than possibly North Harchong.

They use nanites; so in theory they should be able to take basic atomic elements and fabricate any synthetics they might need.

Even back in the beginning of the series; given the area of the planet they had access to; it made little sense that they couldn't "replenish" any raw material they needed; short of perhaps neutronium; and as far as the books go that isn't something the Federation ever used.


But they don't have access to the whole planet. Their mining depth is limited by the need to not arose the wrath of the OBS.
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by Whitecold   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:49 pm

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I have the feeling all this discussion of PICAs is overly complicated.
Some artificial insemination is likely easier, and does not depend on any critical resources. I don't know if Nimue's DNA is on record somewhere, but likely the medical unit can make a pretty reasonable guess in manipulating genes to get a close match in appearance.

And even simpler solution which would also match Merlin's guilt for the entire war would be adoption, there are certainly plenty of orphans around.
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by PlaysWithBees   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:40 pm

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Whitecold wrote:I have the feeling all this discussion of PICAs is overly complicated.
Some artificial insemination is likely easier, and does not depend on any critical resources. I don't know if Nimue's DNA is on record somewhere, but likely the medical unit can make a pretty reasonable guess in manipulating genes to get a close match in appearance.

And even simpler solution which would also match Merlin's guilt for the entire war would be adoption, there are certainly plenty of orphans around.


Adoption/orphanages was always my first thought.
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by Annachie   » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:02 pm

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Well yes, adopting an orphan or three is the logical answer, assuming they don't just found themselves an orphanage outright that is, but for the purposes of these forums it's a boring idea.

:)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by ecortez   » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:18 am

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About PICAs ... certain metals, like tungsten and titanium, which would probably be essential to the creation of any proper, super tough android body, are extremely rare in the crust of terrestrial type planets. Large sophisticated mining operations are needed to extract them in useful amounts. It's a question of priorities and resources. Not to mention explaining why you're digging for exotic metals with few low-tech uses. Some people would wonder where the product was being shipped off to and what you were doing with it. They don't even have someone else who could use a PICA at this stage so the urgency isn't there.

I don't see Nynian as the type who would go to stupendous lengths to have children with her own and Nimue's DNA when there are so many war orphans without families. She and Merlin will probably end up with a gaggle of them. It will be interesting to see if they set up a School of the Inner Circle or something like that - to raise a significant number of children who know the full truth from the beginning. Sad as the whole situation is, kids orphaned in the Jihad could become a powerful force for change. Perhaps running those schools in isolated locations all over Safehold will be a big part of Nynian's (and Helm Cleaver's) peacetime responsibilities.
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by OrlandoNative   » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:47 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
But they don't have access to the whole planet. Their mining depth is limited by the need to not arose the wrath of the OBS.


That the OBS actually both observes and will take action against technology on the planet is a *supposition*; not a proven fact. That was something that Charis tried to prove (on that remote island) when they considered building steam engines; but the OBS didn't "bite". Nothing in the texts indicate that the OBS *ever* took action on it's own; without orders "from the ground".

The OBS also has not been able to apparently detect Nimue's cave or any of the advanced technology operating in it; either. Or, if it has, it hasn't been able to *do* anything about it - possibly again because no one currently on Safehold was able to tell it to.

Mines on earth have often gone to great depths without what one would consider using "advanced technology". Even assuming that such technology was needed to obtain the proper elements on Safehold; tunnels could no doubt be dug starting from the deepest part of Nimue's cave; far under the crust; and probably thus undetectable by the OBS.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by OrlandoNative   » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:03 pm

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ecortez wrote:About PICAs ... certain metals, like tungsten and titanium, which would probably be essential to the creation of any proper, super tough android body, are extremely rare in the crust of terrestrial type planets. Large sophisticated mining operations are needed to extract them in useful amounts. It's a question of priorities and resources. Not to mention explaining why you're digging for exotic metals with few low-tech uses. Some people would wonder where the product was being shipped off to and what you were doing with it. They don't even have someone else who could use a PICA at this stage so the urgency isn't there.


We *used* to use those for tough and/or high temperature applications (think the SR-71 Blackbird); but now composites are generally used. Most of which don't require "hard to find" elements.

Also, there are *vast* areas on Safehold with few or no people. I sort of doubt that any area that might have the necessary elements or minerals would just happen to be right under some high population center.

Even so; who would really have to create an explanation? If Caleb wants to dig on Silverlode; (or anywhere else in Charis); just who is he required to explain his reasons *to*? Similarly for any other noble? Or wealthy property owner like Howsmyn? The "inner circle" isn't going to require an explanation; and no one outside of it can realistically demand one.

As for priorities; that's a somewhat more reasonable argument. However, the war has now been over for several years; and replenishing raw stock for the manufacturing unit in the cave should; by now; have bubbled a bit closer to the top. Especially considering that they don't really have any idea of what they might need to manufacture prior to or after the "Arkangel's return". There's always a chance that something they might need to manufacture just might require some of those same "rare elements". I doubt there was any raw material originally in that unit that was *uniquely* used in the manufacture of PICAs.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by Annachie   » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:27 am

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The OBS hasn't detected Nimue's cave because it's under an iron deposit under a mountain.

The OBS must have programmed in limits to detecting Federation tech.

After all, you don't want to accidently blast an Angel. Or a church/churchman with a holy relic from the war with the fallen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: Merlin and Nynian’s “children”
Post by OrlandoNative   » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:52 pm

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Annachie wrote:The OBS hasn't detected Nimue's cave because it's under an iron deposit under a mountain.

The OBS must have programmed in limits to detecting Federation tech.

After all, you don't want to accidently blast an Angel. Or a church/churchman with a holy relic from the war with the fallen.

Which is *exactly* why the "inner circle" is getting away with using SNARCs and their comms. And the skimmers.

Obviously, the same gear was utilized by Langhorne and his cohorts; and the original seijins had skimmers of their own; so they wouldn't just program in any "blanket" attack on such usage. Similarly the holographic projector
in ATSOT.

But, we don't actually *know* the OBS was programmed to do *anything* autonomously. At least not based on textual (and historical) evidence. Alexandria wasn't wiped off the map by programming; it was destroyed by command. Either Langhorne's or possibly Chihiro's. The nuking of the original Zion by commander Pei didn't trigger anything; and a nuclear blast - even a small one - is somewhat difficult to miss.

For that matter, the construction of the "new Zion" after Pei destroyed the original one obviously entailed the use of lots of "forbidden" technology. One could argue that one could program in geographical "safe areas" into the surveillance, but if someone inadvertently strayed outside the boundaries following some ore vein or for some other reason; I don't think they'd like to have a rock dropped on their heads.

True, new programming *could* have been added at a later date; but it seems obvious from the text that later in time the knowledge and experience base had pretty much died (or possibly been killed during the War Against the Fallen) off.
"Yield to temptation, it may not pass your way again."
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