What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

tlb wrote:What you initially wrote about was mass rape as a matter of policy and that is much rarer even in Earth history

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I was not necessarily implying mass rape although that is a valid interpratation.

You are correct that any Darwinian consequence would require a huge occupation army. The subjugation of Masada suggest s that the Honorverse standard practice is to seize the orbitals the rely on quick reaction forces backed up by orbital bombardment. However, shipping in million s of troops is feasible. Might be shipping in millions of predominantly male colonists. Latin America is a prime example. Most people in Latin America have New World mitachondria combined with European Y chromosome. Haiti is a conspicuous exception.

dsrseraphin wrote:sticking my nose in a perfectly good bilateral debate

au contraire...

It may not have been official policy but, in the time before 'professional' paid armies, it was an unofficial one and/or it was acknowledged as the normal state of affairs of war, with the local matter being left to the commanders as a matter of discipline (boys will be boys, let them have their fun - just make sure they are ready for the next march).

In fact the policy and behavior is predicated by the gruts' typical 'recruitment contact' which almost always had a clause some what like the following - 'you fight, we win, you get to grab some booty'...

so... they fought, they won, they grab booty (both kinds)

just saying...

also -back to the thread- before Admiral Gold Peak went traipsing off to Mesa she was offered and accepted a million person ground force for occupation duty; so large occupation forces are now a part of the HV.

-David S.

I regret saying that, because a refresher on history reveals what we now call war crimes are not so rare: Rwanda and the Balkans for example. Still unsanctioned rape is probably much more common in recent centuries than rape as an instrument of policy (so I may have been technically correct).

I have not found actual numbers for the occupation of Masada (which I would think would be the largest of the occupations). This is from chapter 43 of Ashes of Victory:

The occupation of Masada had never been as all-pervasive as the occupiers no doubt wished it could have been. One simply could not land sufficient troops to garrison and patrol a planet of five or six billion people, which no doubt helped explain the occupiers' strategy of seduction. The orbital bases which gleamed in Masada's night skies, bristling with kinetic weapons and stuffed with battle-armored Marines who could be inserted directly from orbit to destroy any who came out in open opposition, were hardly the same thing as day-to-day contact with their subjugated victims.

The strategy of seduction was to offer prolong to those who would cooperate.

I'm in the midst of watching the movie Gallant Hours, recommended by my history buff of a sister long time ago.

This thread is an excellent reason to do so.

Here is a disastrous possibility that hails from yet another difference from the traditional aspects of war. . .

In the Honorverse, an enemy can operate in your rear area with impunity, unlike in today's world. Which, in todays world, would make it risky for an Admiral like Halsey to fly overseas from Pearl Harbor to inspect Guadalcanal. He could have gotten caught with his pants down, intercepted. Much like Honor did when she had to surrender, being taken completely unawares and intercepted.

The SLN's Operation Buccaneer could make it risky for otherwise routine travel of top brass from place to place. For that reason alone, the SLN should have targeted any ship even remotely affiliated with the GA.

OMG!

A little further into the movie a Japanese sub spotted an American flying boat en route to Guadalcanal. The decoded message of the sighting ends up in the hands of Yamamoto's Chief of Staff. Meet Rear Admiral Jiro Kobe. Kobe is summoned to the office of his CO.

16 October, 1942.

Transcripts . . .

Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Commander in Chief of the combined Japanese Fleet. Americans who knew him when he was a naval attaché in Washington, D.C., remembers him as an excellent poker player. He was especially good at bluffing.

Admiral Yamamoto asks Kobe for his latest estimate of the enemy situation on Guadalcanal. Kobe tells him the Japanese Naval and air bombardments have put almost all allied fighter aircraft out of commission. Imperial Japanese troops have practically surrounded Henderson Field. Allied ground forces have had no supplies or reinforcements. In his opinion, Guadalcanal will be in Japanese hands within four days. How sure is he? Well, here is a plan for the surrender ceremony. Yamamoto is delighted with the plans. Lauds Kobe for his initiative. The decoded paper draws Yamamoto's attention. An American flying boat spotted en route to Guadalcanal. To Kobe it is an item of no consequence. But Yamamoto is interested.

Several high ranking American officers at Pearl Harbor have been unaccounted for for the past three days, they could be anywhere. The odds against their being on that flying boat is incalculable. But the old poker player has a hunch. When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.

OMG!

.

cthia wrote:...Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, ...

When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.

I don't know how true that part of the movie is, but it is ironic if true

Operation Vengeancewas the American military operation to kill Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese Navy on April 18, 1943, during the Solomon Islands campaign in the Pacific Theater of World War II. Isoroku Yamamoto, commander of the Combined Fleet of the Imperial Japanese Navy, was killed on Bougainville Island when his transport bomber aircraft was shot down by United States Army Air Forces fighter aircraft operating from Kukum Field on Guadalcanal.

The mission of the U.S. aircraft was specifically to kill Yamamoto and was based on United States Navy intelligence on Yamamoto's itinerary in the Solomon Islands area.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:...Meet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, ...

When you get a hunch, bet a hunch. He orders twenty Zeroes to intercept the flying boat on its arrival at Guadalcanal.

I don't know how true that part of the movie is, but it is ironic if true

Operation Vengeancewas the American military operation to kill Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto of the Imperial Japanese Navy on April 18, 1943, during the Solomon Islands campaign in the Pacific Theater of World War II. Isoroku Yamamoto, commander of the Combined Fleet of the Imperial Japanese Navy, was killed on Bougainville Island when his transport bomber aircraft was shot down by United States Army Air Forces fighter aircraft operating from Kukum Field on Guadalcanal.

The mission of the U.S. aircraft was specifically to kill Yamamoto and was based on United States Navy intelligence on Yamamoto's itinerary in the Solomon Islands area.

Gees! Talk about an interesting and timely post, Harold. Thanks.

Back to the movie . . .



"What's our position Andy?"

"We're three minutes ahead of flight plan, sir."

"How long you been on this course?"

"'Bout an hour, sir."

"What's the weather at Guadalcanal?"

"Forecast is for clear. Is anything wrong sir? With the flight plan?"

. . .

"How's it going Chief?"

"Oh fine Admiral. New Mia's been receiving loud and clear."

"Anything new?"

"Ah no sir. Oh except. This wasn't sent to us, but ah, I picked it up. New Mia's(?) reporting unusual Japanese traffic between Truk and Guadalcanal."

. . .

"Sit down. . . . I think we'll pass up Guadalcanal. Tell Andy to change course to New Mia. Direct."

"Aye aye, sir."

Admiral Yamamoto wasn't the only hunch player in the South Pacific.

cthia wrote:Here is a disastrous possibility that hails from yet another difference from the traditional aspects of war. . .

In the Honorverse, an enemy can operate in your rear area with impunity, unlike in today's world. Which, in todays world, would make it risky for an Admiral like Halsey to fly overseas from Pearl Harbor to inspect Guadalcanal. He could have gotten caught with his pants down, intercepted. Much like Honor did when she had to surrender, being taken completely unawares and intercepted.

The SLN's Operation Buccaneer could make it risky for otherwise routine travel of top brass from place to place. For that reason alone, the SLN should have targeted any ship even remotely affiliated with the GA.

I'm surprised that you didn't allude to what happened to Admiral Yamamoto when you mentioned Halsey potentially flying to inspect Guadalcanal. (I see Weird Harold posted it a few posts after your)

But one difference between the Honorverse and WWII aircraft or even age of sail ships is that without exact intelligence of ship movements it's basically impossible to find and intercept a ship in hyper. (Though admittedly the interception of the aforementioned Admiral Yamamoto was at such extreme range that exact details of his flight were needed to pull it off -- he was too far behind the lines for a routine fighter sweep to have stumbled across)

So Operation Buccaneer or a system inspection tour is mostly a risk if an enemy might be able to take over the system you're traveling to (or at least to interdict the area near it's hyper limit) -- so you drop into their arms.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Here is a disastrous possibility that hails from yet another difference from the traditional aspects of war. . .

In the Honorverse, an enemy can operate in your rear area with impunity, unlike in today's world. Which, in todays world, would make it risky for an Admiral like Halsey to fly overseas from Pearl Harbor to inspect Guadalcanal. He could have gotten caught with his pants down, intercepted. Much like Honor did when she had to surrender, being taken completely unawares and intercepted.

The SLN's Operation Buccaneer could make it risky for otherwise routine travel of top brass from place to place. For that reason alone, the SLN should have targeted any ship even remotely affiliated with the GA.

I'm surprised that you didn't allude to what happened to Admiral Yamamoto when you mentioned Halsey potentially flying to inspect Guadalcanal. (I see Weird Harold posted it a few posts after your)

But one difference between the Honorverse and WWII aircraft or even age of sail ships is that without exact intelligence of ship movements it's basically impossible to find and intercept a ship in hyper. (Though admittedly the interception of the aforementioned Admiral Yamamoto was at such extreme range that exact details of his flight were needed to pull it off -- he was too far behind the lines for a routine fighter sweep to have stumbled across)

So Operation Buccaneer or a system inspection tour is mostly a risk if an enemy might be able to take over the system you're traveling to (or at least to interdict the area near it's hyper limit) -- so you drop into their arms.

But to the stealthy MAlign . . . the galaxy is not safe.

They're like gods, they come like a thief in the night.

Vince wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I was not necessarily implying mass rape although that is a valid interpratation.

You are correct that any Darwinian consequence would require a huge occupation army. The subnergation of Masada suggest s that the Honorverse standard practice is to seize the orbitals the rely on quick reaction forces backed up by orbital bombardment. However, shipping in million s of troops is feasible. Might be shipping in millions of predominantly male colonists. Latin America is a prime example. Most people in Latin America have New World mitachondria combined with European Y chromosome. Haiti is a conspicuous exception.

A small quibble: Actually, the bolded sentence is somewhat of a contradiction in terms, as currently written (assuming that the premise of the European Y chromosome is correct). The last time I looked, at least half the population on Earth is missing the Y chromosome--they have another, unique X chromosome instead. Correcting the sentence to read--Most males in Latin America have New World mitochondria combined with European Y chromosome--makes more sense, or at least is not a contradiction in terms.

I am corrected.

Just a thought: from a Darwinian perspective, loosing or winning a war is less important to women than men. If men win wars, they get extra breeding opportunities. If women win wars, they gain very little except may be wealth to better the lives of the children they would have anyway. If men loose wars, they might loose their lives or may be their testicles, but on average they end up having fewer children.

At the risk of sounding like a feminist I would point out that matriarchal governed societies would have far less organized warfare than patriarchal societies because the risks verses reward ratio is so much higher.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:At the risk of sounding like a feminist I would point out that matriarchal governed societies would have far less organized warfare than patriarchal societies because the risks verses reward ratio is so much higher.

Since those have never actually existed....