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What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:48 pm

Kael Posavatz
Lieutenant Commander

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dsrseraphin wrote:Halsey's mistakes at the Battle of Samar actually illustrates the strengths & weaknesses of local battle space management vs central control. Halsey makes a local battle space decision, not the best in light of his incomplete information but one that matched the strategic goal. Halsey compounds his error by poor c3 within his command (that's all on him and THAT's what cooks his goose). This, unfortunately for Halsey, leads to the CiC of the Pacific Theater to question his tactics (which Halsey took as a severe rebuke). Luckily for Halsey, the extremely positive esprit de corps of the out numbered defenders (of which Halsey was partially responsible for) repulse the demoralized (again, partially a product of Halsey) Japanese attackers. This incident proves my point that operations must managed local (but properly) and that telecommunications can give a timely value add to operations if done wisely.


Length's fine. I think most people here through up lengthy walls of text. I know that I've done more than a few already.

I need to comment on that 'rebuke' remark.

The original communication was an informational request by Nimitz-who-lacks-a-tail regarding the location of TF 34 as previous communication was unclear. Granted, Kinkaid's plain-text call for help provoked it, but it was purely informational in nature.

The decision by whoever decrypted it on New Jersey to leave in the padding, and Halsey's Comm Officer (name escapes me at the moment) not to redact the padding, meant Halsey received a 'rebuke' that was never intended or even implicit in Nimitz' original request.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by dsrseraphin   » Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:22 pm

dsrseraphin
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:51 pm

Kael Posavatz wrote:
dsrseraphin wrote:Halsey's mistakes at the Battle of Samar actually illustrates the strengths & weaknesses of local battle space management vs central control. Halsey makes a local battle space decision, not the best in light of his incomplete information but one that matched the strategic goal. Halsey compounds his error by poor c3 within his command (that's all on him and THAT's what cooks his goose). This, unfortunately for Halsey, leads to the CiC of the Pacific Theater to question his tactics (which Halsey took as a severe rebuke). Luckily for Halsey, the extremely positive esprit de corps of the out numbered defenders (of which Halsey was partially responsible for) repulse the demoralized (again, partially a product of Halsey) Japanese attackers. This incident proves my point that operations must managed local (but properly) and that telecommunications can give a timely value add to operations if done wisely.


Length's fine. I think most people here through up lengthy walls of text. I know that I've done more than a few already.

I need to comment on that 'rebuke' remark.

The original communication was an informational request by Nimitz-who-lacks-a-tail regarding the location of TF 34 as previous communication was unclear. Granted, Kinkaid's plain-text call for help provoked it, but it was purely informational in nature.

The decision by whoever decrypted it on New Jersey to leave in the padding, and Halsey's Comm Officer (name escapes me at the moment) not to redact the padding, meant Halsey received a 'rebuke' that was never intended or even implicit in Nimitz' original request.


Yes I know it wasn't meant as a rebuke but, as the Wikipedia article inferred, regardless of how it was meant Halsey took it as a rebuke, so much so that I would characterize his response as a 'snit fit', so much so that a subordinate had to basically admonish him to get over it and do his job (gotta luv those well chosen staff officers), and even then he stewed some more... as much as a Jewish mother's over done prune dish.

As to whether or not Nimitz (the Admiral, not the privy aide de camp w/claws) was questioning tactics, my bet is that he was... He could have left the inquiry to his staff as in "... could you find out which china shop our favorite Bull is at now, for me..." but that he sent his Bull a personal communique in the midst of an operation speaks volumes.

Its not two flag officers in the O club shooting the breeze - its the CiC for the Theater contacting his Fleet commander regarding where he (meaning his command) is at that moment in the middle of combat operations. This implies either that the CiC is sooooo out of the loop and clueless that he (or she, gotta be PC now) could not find the seat of his birthday suit without a powerpoint presentation (which he was not) -or- that the commander fracked his c3 so badly that the stench of the fecal matter mixing in with his command screws reached a thousand miles, from the Philippines all the way to Hawaii (which he did & it did)

My contention is Halsey's error was not in the tactic of concentrating his forces but in exercising dang poor command, control, & communications with regard to his command. Failure to inform a subordinate of change in tactics in the battle space, failure to respond to said subordinate when notified about an unexpected change in the battle space, that was the real problem. If he had replied with something... even "shhhhh, be wery, wery, quiet... Im hunt'n wabbits" he probably would not have gotten a front channel inquiry from HIS commander (back channel maybe but not one that splashed into the history books).

and thanks for taking the time to read me

-David S.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:46 am

George J. Smith
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dsrseraphin wrote:
Snip...

Today's battle space control is such that the CIC of the entire armed forces can snoop on the mission of a fire team; our pilots now have the option for remote operations; we are training our next generation for remote strategic & tactical battle space management (as entertainment)... we live in interesting times.

...Snip




Reminds me of Stark's War
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:31 am

TFLYTSNBN

Just a clarification on my irreverent SEX SLAVES remark. I am well aware of how horrific the historic practice of conqueres raping the women of the defeated is. Perhaps one of the most brutal example was the treatment of German women by Soviet troops. The abuse was so brutal that many died or committed suicide and relatively few live off spring resulted. The Haitian slave revolt is another brutal example. The experience of West German women with French, British, Canadian and American troops was generally not so brutal.

Even if the historic practice of raping as well as pillaging thr conquered is not a feature in the Honorverse (the behsvior of Pirates, Masadans, State Sec goons and OFS goons suggests that it would be) a defeated people whose wealth hasbeen confiscated by the conquerers is going to result in a large number of conquered women who view the conquering males as better mates than the conquered males.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by tlb   » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:58 am

tlb
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Just a clarification on my irreverent SEX SLAVES remark. I am well aware of how horrific the historic practice of conquerers raping the women of the defeated is. Perhaps one of the most brutal example was the treatment of German women by Soviet troops. The abuse was so brutal that many died or committed suicide and relatively few live off spring resulted. The Haitian slave revolt is another brutal example. The experience of West German women with French, British, Canadian and American troops was generally not so brutal.

Even if the historic practice of raping as well as pillaging the conquered is not a feature in the Honorverse (the behavior of Pirates, Masadans, State Sec goons and OFS goons suggests that it would be) a defeated people whose wealth has been confiscated by the conquerers is going to result in a large number of conquered women who view the conquering males as better mates than the conquered males.

An important reason why it is not a feature of Honorverse warfare is that one condition for it to occur is the presence of a large ground army among an enemy population.
What you initially wrote about was mass rape as a matter of policy and that is much rarer even in Earth history (the German versus Soviet struggle in WW2 might be an example). For example the Mongols were extremely brutal to the inhabitants of any city that resisted conquest, but not in any city that immediately surrendered.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by dsrseraphin   » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:37 pm

dsrseraphin
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:51 pm

George J. Smith wrote:
dsrseraphin wrote:
Snip...

Today's battle space control is such that the CIC of the entire armed forces can snoop on the mission of a fire team; our pilots now have the option for remote operations; we are training our next generation for remote strategic & tactical battle space management (as entertainment)... we live in interesting times.

...Snip




Reminds me of Stark's War


Actually I was thinking more on the lines of Ernest Cline's Armada... but Stark's War is valid too.

Thinking about the military as 'Bread & Circuses' style entertainment, reminded me of Colossus by D. F. Jones where the 'Skynet' equivalent (Colossus & Guardian) used remote controlled dueling battleships as an 'entertainment opiate'...

Which lead me to finding out that Johnathan Swift is attributed with describing the first (fictional) 'calculating machine' in his satire Gulliver's Travels :o ...

Which lead me to... (looking around in recognition) wait this is the Honorverse Forum!... heh, never mind. ;)

-David S.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:22 pm

TFLYTSNBN

tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:Just a clarification on my irreverent SEX SLAVES remark. I am well aware of how horrific the historic practice of conquerers raping the women of the defeated is. Perhaps one of the most brutal example was the treatment of German women by Soviet troops. The abuse was so brutal that many died or committed suicide and relatively few live off spring resulted. The Haitian slave revolt is another brutal example. The experience of West German women with French, British, Canadian and American troops was generally not so brutal.

Even if the historic practice of raping as well as pillaging the conquered is not a feature in the Honorverse (the behavior of Pirates, Masadans, State Sec goons and OFS goons suggests that it would be) a defeated people whose wealth has been confiscated by the conquerers is going to result in a large number of conquered women who view the conquering males as better mates than the conquered males.

An important reason why it is not a feature of Honorverse warfare is that one condition for it to occur is the presence of a large ground army among an enemy population.
What you initially wrote about was mass rape as a matter of policy and that is much rarer even in Earth history (the German versus Soviet struggle in WW2 might be an example). For example the Mongols were extremely brutal to the inhabitants of any city that resisted conquest, but not in any city that immediately surrendered.


I was not necessarily implying mass rape although that is a valid interpratation.

You are correct that any Darwinian consequence would require a huge occupation army. The subnergation of Masada suggest s that the Honorverse standard practice is to seize the orbitals the rely on quick reaction forces backed up by orbital bombardment. However, shipping in million s of troops is feasible. Might be shipping in millions of predominantly male colonists. Latin America is a prime example. Most people in Latin America have New World mitachondria combined with European Y chromosome. Haiti is a conspicuous exception.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Vince   » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:38 pm

Vince
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1574
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I was not necessarily implying mass rape although that is a valid interpratation.

You are correct that any Darwinian consequence would require a huge occupation army. The subnergation of Masada suggest s that the Honorverse standard practice is to seize the orbitals the rely on quick reaction forces backed up by orbital bombardment. However, shipping in million s of troops is feasible. Might be shipping in millions of predominantly male colonists. Latin America is a prime example. Most people in Latin America have New World mitachondria combined with European Y chromosome. Haiti is a conspicuous exception.

A small quibble: Actually, the bolded sentence is somewhat of a contradiction in terms, as currently written (assuming that the premise of the European Y chromosome is correct). The last time I looked, at least half the population on Earth is missing the Y chromosome--they have another, unique X chromosome instead. Correcting the sentence to read--Most males in Latin America have New World mitochondria combined with European Y chromosome--makes more sense, or at least is not a contradiction in terms.
-------------------------------------------------------------
History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by dsrseraphin   » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:53 pm

dsrseraphin
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:51 pm

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
tlb wrote:...

What you initially wrote about was mass rape as a matter of policy and that is much rarer even in Earth history

...


I was not necessarily implying mass rape although that is a valid interpratation.

You are correct that any Darwinian consequence would require a huge occupation army. The subnergation of Masada suggest s that the Honorverse standard practice is to seize the orbitals the rely on quick reaction forces backed up by orbital bombardment. However, shipping in million s of troops is feasible. Might be shipping in millions of predominantly male colonists. Latin America is a prime example. Most people in Latin America have New World mitachondria combined with European Y chromosome. Haiti is a conspicuous exception.


sticking my nose in a perfectly good bilateral debate

au contraire...

It may not have been official policy but, in the time before 'professional' paid armies, it was an unofficial one and/or it was acknowledged as the normal state of affairs of war, with the local matter being left to the commanders as a matter of discipline (boys will be boys, let them have their fun - just make sure they are ready for the next march).

In fact the policy and behavior is predicated by the gruts' typical 'recruitment contact' which almost always had a clause some what like the following - 'you fight, we win, you get to grab some booty'...

so... they fought, they won, they grab booty (both kinds)

just saying...

also -back to the thread- before Admiral Gold Peak went traipsing off to Mesa she was offered and accepted a million person ground force for occupation duty; so large occupation forces are now a part of the HV.

-David S.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:44 pm

Jonathan_S
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dsrseraphin wrote:also -back to the thread- before Admiral Gold Peak went traipsing off to Mesa she was offered and accepted a million person ground force for occupation duty; so large occupation forces are now a part of the HV.

-David S.

Though that have been a special case as Manticore would intelligence on the MAlign - and their best chance to get it it to seize everything pretty much simultaneously while keeping the likely slave and seccie uprising and reprisals from wrecking records or killing people the Manties would like to take into custody and interrogate.

(And that's leaving aside the humanitarian need to keep mass pogroms or bloody slave revolts from breaking out the minute the internal security forces are taken off the board - in some ways its worse than Masada because you've got mutually hostile populations intermingled plus way more people in the first place).

Could be those troop levels are the new normal or could be this is a special exception. Kind of hard to know given just a single data point.
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