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What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?

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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Relax   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:09 am

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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:Absolutely Impossible.

It's absolutely possible.


The PROBLEM, is that said pulsars are in OTHER galaxies far far far away. Humanity has spread out a measly 1000ly from earth. Triangulating the tangent of 0.0000000000000001 degrees is still ~~~ 0. IE massively problematical.

Triangulation via the local stars should be imminently possible. Once enough are done, you can calculate stellar drift of them all. DO this over a period of several hundred years, and you should be able to navigate within SL space extremely accurately at the least as Hyperspace is just a velocity multiplier. How accurate are those hyperspace logs?

No commercial spacer is going to put up coming out of hyperspace a light hour away and then having to burn extra hydrogen/time getting to the hyper limit. Insurance will not put up with this as the insurance is not only for the goods, but also timely delivery. Government will not put up with this. They will have hyperspace mapped very accurately in all the bands. Especially on busy routes. Major systems and wormholes for instance.

So, while I agree with you that due to common logic and applied geometry, navigation should be within a handful million kilometers no matter who or where in HV space, the author says otherwise for plot reasons. Like most other uh..... technological economic SNAFU's in the HV. Making a world too perfect ties your feet down when you need to pull a rabbit out of the hat.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by kzt   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:15 am

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The economics of the the honorverse are kind of odd at times...
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:51 am

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cthia wrote:Surely classified data isn't all kept in space and backups are kept on planet? Wouldn't classified groundside facilities be a must? Or would that simply represent another cutout to worry about?

Computers are a different thing than actual hardware and tooling. All naval vessels in the HV have security systems that "brick" the computer; presumably a secure data storage would have a similar system.

Henke triggers those systems in the ships she captured in New Tuscany and it reformats the memory down to base circuitry.

The problem with the enemy capturing battle debris is all the stuff that isn't computers: beta squared nodes, FTL transmitters, missile drives, warheads, micro fusion plants, missile pods (spent or not), mostly-intact drones, energy weapons, etc. Physical samples of any of that stuff could give an enemy a vital starting point to figuring out how your stuff works.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:06 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
cthia wrote:Surely classified data isn't all kept in space and backups are kept on planet? Wouldn't classified groundside facilities be a must? Or would that simply represent another cutout to worry about?

Computers are a different thing than actual hardware and tooling. All naval vessels in the HV have security systems that "brick" the computer; presumably a secure data storage would have a similar system.

Henke triggers those systems in the ships she captured in New Tuscany and it reformats the memory down to base circuitry.

The problem with the enemy capturing battle debris is all the stuff that isn't computers: beta squared nodes, FTL transmitters, missile drives, warheads, micro fusion plants, missile pods (spent or not), mostly-intact drones, energy weapons, etc. Physical samples of any of that stuff could give an enemy a vital starting point to figuring out how your stuff works.


Indeed.

I was also thinking about the situation during Oyster Bay where one of the stations destroyed included lots of research data that was lost forever. I thought it odd that backups weren't routinely kept on planet. A station could suffer an accidental disaster as well. Losing all data regarding the Apollo program when the SK was in a race for its life could have been fatal.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by dsrseraphin   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:43 pm

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cthia wrote:I was also thinking about the situation during Oyster Bay where one of the stations destroyed included lots of research data that was lost forever. I thought it odd that backups weren't routinely kept on planet. A station could suffer an accidental disaster as well. Losing all data regarding the Apollo program when the SK was in a race for its life could have been fatal.


Problem is timeliness of the data...
Yes you have non local backup but its usefulness for minimum time recovery is proportional to the 'distance' it has to travel to & from use site & archive site.
Mixing in security complicates matters greatly because you now simultaneously cut down on the number of potential archive sites and increase the 'distance' of available sites (securing the data means longer transit times going from usable/readable data to cyber-text and back again).

Therefore, there may be planet-side backup but it is unlikely that it will contain the most recent (and the most valuable) data.

You don't lose all data but in an R&D race you lose time.

Besides this does NOT factor in the human element... a thousand years from now it will still be franking near impossible to get regular users (much less ultra focused researchers who 'know' what is really important) to adhere to the required/mandated backups procedures (no matter how many virtual and/or human assistants you give them).

-David S.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Kael Posavatz   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:45 pm

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cthia wrote:
Indeed.

I was also thinking about the situation during Oyster Bay where one of the stations destroyed included lots of research data that was lost forever. I thought it odd that backups weren't routinely kept on planet. A station could suffer an accidental disaster as well. Losing all data regarding the Apollo program when the SK was in a race for its life could have been fatal.


Uh, backups were kept on Gryphon. Every 12 hrs as I recall, and backed up again during the little evacuation drill. Some physical prototypes were lost, but that's a little different from data.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by dsrseraphin   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:14 pm

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Relax wrote:The PROBLEM, is that said pulsars are in OTHER galaxies far far far away. Humanity has spread out a measly 1000ly from earth. Triangulating the tangent of 0.0000000000000001 degrees is still ~~~ 0. IE massively problematical.

Triangulation via the local stars should be imminently possible. Once enough are done, you can calculate stellar drift of them all. DO this over a period of several hundred years, and you should be able to navigate within SL space extremely accurately at the least as Hyperspace is just a velocity multiplier. How accurate are those hyperspace logs?

No commercial spacer is going to put up coming out of hyperspace a light hour away and then having to burn extra hydrogen/time getting to the hyper limit. Insurance will not put up with this as the insurance is not only for the goods, but also timely delivery. Government will not put up with this. They will have hyperspace mapped very accurately in all the bands. Especially on busy routes. Major systems and wormholes for instance.

So, while I agree with you that due to common logic and applied geometry, navigation should be within a handful million kilometers no matter who or where in HV space, the author says otherwise for plot reasons. Like most other uh..... technological economic SNAFU's in the HV. Making a world too perfect ties your feet down when you need to pull a rabbit out of the hat.


Synchronous operations is not the problem.
Reliance on knowledge beyond your spacetime horizon is the problem...

Knowing when & where you are is a problem of astrography and as stated the likelihood of having accurate 'maps' is a economic and military given for your known-space (see examples of charting during wormhole exploration expeditions).

So planning a synchronous operation is not the problem... executing one that relies on information beyond the local spacetime horizon is the problem. Absolute reliance on such info will most likely result in absolute failure.

[This is what I like so much about the HV, regardless of the technology (which is sometimes greased with handwavium oil) it comes back to the human element.]

back to the topic of the thread.

cartography is a value add for capturing as oppose to raiding a system

Because the physics of HV enables long distance high speed transportation routes while making those routes nigh impossible to remotely monitor, gaining up to date maps of the areas of operation (the system's n-space & the near warpspace - think extended 'littoral' zone for stellar system) is highly critical both tactically and strategically.

So, in addition to resource denial in the short term (which can be done in a raid) and/or possible resource exploitation in the long term (which can only be done in a capture), you have 'lay of space' information gathering which takes time to do (so more than a raid) but does not need planetfall (so occupation is not required). The benefits are: when you leave (and you do plan on leaving) you've collected info that is more or less static in nature that enables improved operations upon your return (whether or not that is planned) and you get additional information on your opponent's (strategic) constraints and capabilities.

-David S.
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by Relax   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:57 pm

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dsrseraphin wrote:So planning a synchronous operation is not the problem... executing one that relies on information beyond the local spacetime horizon is the problem. Absolute reliance on such info will most likely result in absolute failure.


No one is saying that, unless I can't read(been known to happen). We all know, there is no galactic telepathy...
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:16 pm

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Another interesting facet of the Honorverse is the autonomy the RMN Admiralty gives to its dispersed forces.

Caparelli sits in the War Room and decides which drain valve to open from the MBS to allow the flow of warships. He then acknowledges the adjustments those ordered fleet movements have made on the Holo tank. Pleased he is about his latest deployments and repositioning . . . though still nervous over the developments on the "southern flank."

But then . . . the forces at Grayson decide to show a little initiative and go to the aid of the surprise capture of Candor and Minette by the Peeps. Naturally I'm thinking the Holo tank Caparelli is peering into is all wrong. Not only has Grayson forces split, but they also shortstopped RMN units (Admiral Henries) who had received orders to redeploy from the RMN Admiralty.

I should have noted the weight of the shortstopped forces.

I find it interesting that a Grayson Admiral, High Admiral Matthews, was able to commandeer RMN forces. I know that's how the game is played, I simply find it interesting.

I recall textev touting RMN autonomy vs the Peeps operating inside a box - lest they get shot - and the advantage of the RMN because of it.

However, I'm surprised that that same leeway hasn't also bitten the RMN's ass more than a time or three - like it almost did right there in Yeltsin. Like it did with the decisions of Halsey. But that's another can of worms.

This scenario certainly highlights one of the advantages of the interior lines of communication caused by the efficient dispersal of data via termini. Do forgive length, but contents are very important to my point, other points yet to come and it serves as a perfect template for this thread. Apologies in advance. . .


Flag in Exile Ch. 17 wrote:"I will be dipped in shit if I ever expected anything like this," Henries said frankly, and Matthews nodded. Hearing such language in Lady Harrington's presence annoyed him, but no doubt she'd heard worse, and it was typical of Henries. Sir Alfred was a highly competent officer, but he'd started out as a merchant spacer and earned his flag—and knighthood—the hard way. That might be easier in the RMN than in many other navies, but it remained a remarkable achievement, and he cultivated a certain deliberate bluntness as if to remind everyone of it. He was short and stocky for a Manticoran, though still several centimeters taller than Matthews himself, and his brown eyes were worried as he ran a hand through sandy hair he wore as short as most Graysons.

"How in hell did they pry that much tonnage loose?" Henries went on, unconsciously echoing Honor's earlier remark to Mercedes. "And if they had it to use someplace, why not throw it at Thetis? Surely that's more important to them than a raid on somewhere like Minette or Candor!"

"If it is a raid, Sir Alfred," Honor said quietly. Henries looked at her, and she shrugged. "You're right. They've sent a good seven percent of their total surviving wall a hundred-plus light-years behind the front and used it to take two systems that aren't especially vital to us. That seems like an awfully stupid diversion when they have to be aware of what will happen to them if Admiral White Haven breaks through to Trevor's Star." Henries' grunt of agreement held an interrogative note, as if asking what her point was, and she shrugged again. "I don't object to the enemy doing stupid things, Sir Alfred, but when it's something this stupid, I have to wonder if there's something behind it that we just haven't seen yet."

"You don't suppose they're trying to force Earl White Haven to weaken his own forces, do you?" Henries asked. "Figuring he'll detach from his own command to take them back?"

"They could be. Or they could be after something else entirely. The question is what."

Henries nodded again, thoughtfully, Matthews noted. Despite his occasionally rough-edged language in her presence, Sir Alfred had always shown Lady Harrington the respect her Grayson rank demanded, in spite of the fact that her permanent Manticoran rank was only that of captain. It was one of the things Matthews liked about Henries, and probably also a sign of the RMN's professional respect for her, half-pay or no.

"That's the question, My Lady," the high admiral said now, "but since we can't answer it, a more immediate question is deciding how to respond."

He pressed a button, and a holo display of a conical volume of space defined by the Manticore Binary System, Clairmont, and Grendelsbane blinked to life. Most of the stars were the green of the Manticoran Alliance, but Minette and Candor now burned a sullen red.

"They've driven a wedge into our flank," he pointed out. "I suppose they might be planning to stage followup attacks through Solway and Treadway, but Lady Harrington is right; diverting enough ships of the wall to make it effective will weaken them before Trevor's Star. If they maintain their strength at Nightingale, then they'll have to divert from Maastricht or Solon, and weakening either of those systems will let Admiral White Haven hook around Nightingale's flank. Somehow I can't quite see them doing that."

Honor and Henries nodded. The Peeps had to realize Trevor's Star was the true target of Earl White Haven's campaign, for the Republic's possession of the system constituted a direct threat to the Manticore Binary System. Trevor's Star was over two hundred light-years from Manticore. It would take a superdreadnought over a month to make the hyper-space voyage between them, but Trevor's Star also contained one terminus of the Manticore Worm Hole Junction, and a battle fleet could make the same trip effectively instantaneously via the Junction.

Relieving that threat was one of Manticore's primary strategic goals, but the Star Kingdom had more than one motive. If White Haven could take the system, its Junction terminus would become a direct link to Manticore for the Alliance. Developed into a forward base inside the Republic, Trevor's Star would represent a secure bridgehead, a springboard for future offensives. Transit times between the Star Kingdom's shipyards and home-system fleet bases would become negligible. There wouldn't even be any need to detach convoy escorts to protect the long, vulnerable logistical chain between Manticore and a base like Thetis; unescorted merchantmen could pop through to Trevor's Star with total impunity, whenever they chose.

All of which meant the Peeps had to hold the system, and they'd been scraping the bottom of the barrel for months to do just that, which made this latest escapade still more inexplicable.

And, High Admiral Wesley Matthews reminded himself grimly, it made Lady Harrington's observation even more pertinent. If it looked this stupid, there had to be more to it than met the eye.

"Well, High Admiral," Henries said after a moment, eyes on the holo display, "whatever they're up to, I don't see that we've got any choice but to bounce their asses out. They're a direct threat to Doreas and Casca—neither of those systems is much more heavily picketed than Candor was—or they could hook up and try to retake Quest, I suppose." The stocky Manticoran admiral brooded over the green and red stars, then sighed. "Whatever they're after, they've damned well picked a couple of targets we have to take back from them!"

"Which may be all they really want," Matthews pointed out. "As you say, they may hope we'll detach forces from Admiral White Haven to do it."

"It may be what they want," Honor murmured, "but they have to know they're unlikely to get it. They must have a pretty accurate order of battle on the Earl, so simple math should tell them we still have more than enough ships of the wall in other places—like the Manticoran Home Fleet, or right here, for that matter—to throw them back out again. They can make us uncover, or at least weaken, other systems to concentrate a relief force, but we can do it without weakening Admiral White Haven. And once we do concentrate it, they won't risk losing that many SDs by trying to hold two relatively unimportant systems so far from Trevor's Star."

"Lady Harrington's right, High Admiral," Henries said. "All they can really make us do is burn the time to assemble our forces. Oh," he waved, "if they go ahead and try for Casca or Quest or Doreas, they can make us burn some more time, but they don't have enough ships of the wall to risk any sort of serious defense against the numerical superiority we can throw at them."

"Any word on what the Peeps are doing in the systems, Sir?" Honor asked, and Matthews shook his head.

"Not really. All we've got so far are the preliminary dispatches from the station commanders. I assume Admiral Stanton and Admiral Meiner are still managing to picket the outer systems, but we can't even be certain of that. As of the last report we have, the Peeps weren't carrying out any systematic destruction of the system infrastructures, though."

"Then maybe they are planning to stay," Henries said. "If they think they can hold them, they wouldn't want to wreck anything they could use."

"I see your logic," Matthews said, "but it only emphasizes that we don't know what they're after. And whatever it is, it seems to me that the immediate problem is to get enough strength into the vicinity to sit on them."

"According to Admiral Stanton's dispatch, he took his lumps, but he hurt them pretty badly in his single pass, Sir," Mercedes Brigham put in. She looked at Honor and tapped the terminal in front of her. "He lost four heavy cruisers and took heavy damage to Majestic and Orion, but he nailed one of their SDs, hit a second one hard, and took out a battlecruiser for good measure. They know they've been nudged, Milady."

"True, but he expended virtually his full missile load to do it," Henries pointed out. "He can picket the outer system, but until we get some missile resupply to him, he can't do anything more, and he's got cripples to worry about. Admiral Meiner's got full magazines and no crips, but battlecruisers can't go toe-to-toe with SDs."

"But we can," Matthews said. Honor and Henries looked at him, and he used the holo controls to throw a cursor into the display. He moved it to touch Grendelsbane, and neat letters displayed the Alliance strength in the system.

"As you can see, Admiral Hemphill has half-again the strength of either of these forces sitting down here on their southern flank." He touched the tracker ball, and the cursor whipped across to Clairmont. "At the same time, Admiral Koga has two divisions of dreadnoughts up here, and—" the cursor dashed up off the upper edge of the display and another star appeared in previously empty space "—Admiral Truman has a division of SDs up here at Klien Station. That gives us six ships of the wall north of Candor, though it'll take some time to concentrate them."

"Six against fifteen, Sir?" Henries couldn't quite keep the doubt out of his voice, and Matthews shook his head once more.

"No, nineteen against fifteen, Sir Alfred," he said quietly. "It's time Grayson made a little payback for all Manticore's done for us."

"Sir?" Henries sat straighter, and Matthews gave him a thin smile.

"I realize your orders are to report to Admiral White Haven, Sir Alfred, but I'm countermanding them. Battle Squadron Two will combine with your command and depart within three hours for Casca. At the same time, I'll send dispatches to Admiral Koga and Admiral Truman, instructing them to join us there at their best speed. If the Peeps haven't already pinched the system out from Candor, you and I should have enough strength to discourage them from making the attempt. Once the other divisions join us, we'll move in and throw them out of Candor, then advance on Minette. With any luck, we can coordinate with Admiral Hemphill to take that system back, as well, and do it without diverting a single ship from Thetis."

"Have you discussed this with Protector Benjamin, Sir?" Henries asked, regarding the high admiral with pronounced respect. "That's half your battle fleet, High Admiral, and, with all due respect, you haven't had a hell of a lot of time to drill your people."

"We've had long enough for Lady Harrington to hold her own against you, Sir Alfred," Matthews pointed out with a smile. "BatRon Two's had considerably longer to drill than her squadron has—that's why I'm tapping it for this operation instead of BatRon One," he added almost apologetically to Honor, though his eyes never left Henries'. "If we can do that well against you Manticorans, I think we can manage against Peeps."

"Yes, Sir, I imagine you damned well can," Henries agreed with a slow grin. "But it's still a lot of exposure for your Navy."

"It is, but I have, indeed, received the Protector's approval."

"In that case, High Admiral, all I can say on behalf of my Queen is thank you. Thank you very much."


During my virgin voyage through the series I kept thinking, "Thanks could be premature."

I also found this thought rather amusing. . .

"Well, High Admiral," Henries said after a moment, eyes on the holo display, "whatever they're up to, I don't see that we've got any choice but to bounce their asses out.


Not only might the Admiralty be relying on a fatally inaccurate representation of the deployed forces because of the autonomy of his officers in the hot seat (remember, Pavel Young decided to leave station altogether), but here is the entire Yeltsin contingent looking at a Holo tank forming strategy on the last known deployment map - which is minus thrice 1) the recent deployments made by the Admiralty 2) decisions of the other autonomous creatures in RMN uniform, and 3) the redeployment mistake he's about to make himself.

There's too damn much pressure on your shoulders in the Honorverse.

How many times does one have to say, "I totally Effed Up sir!"

.
Last edited by cthia on Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: What is the |value| of captured enemy systems?
Post by dsrseraphin   » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:33 pm

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Relax wrote:
dsrseraphin wrote:So planning a synchronous operation is not the problem... executing one that relies on information beyond the local spacetime horizon is the problem. Absolute reliance on such info will most likely result in absolute failure.


No one is saying that, unless I can't read(been known to happen). We all know, there is no galactic telepathy...



Sorry, wasn't disagreeing with you
it was just that others were getting bogged down on the ability to keep time and be synchronized

to me that is a non issue

my point on that subject is if you can do space travel, especially ftl travel, synchronizing your 'watches' is not really going to an issue compared to all of the other things you need to accomplish just to get from here to there - "you go to the place where the stars look like this and you attack when they look that".
At this level of tech, if you have the capability to get to where you are suppose to be, you surely have the ability to tee off when you are suppose to.

Now if your orders include some non sense about waiting for some trigger coming from another unit and trying to achieve simultaneity that way - well good luck with that because Murphy will have your units by the short hairs.

Assuming no prepositioning, telepathy ('far' communicating) is a no go also because it requires an observer to already be where your going.

Now accurate clairvoyance (remote viewing or precognition) would be an acceptable triggering method (it changes your spacetime horizon).

Remembering the maxim 'any sufficiently advanced technology can be like magic'

hmmm HV magic... how about an off shoot of the streak-drive - upper band gwandar (gravitational wave navigation, detection, and ranging), gravewave scattering off of 'knotted' gravity sources/sinks like blackholes and ahh perhaps impeller wedges & Warshawski sails; or lets try an off shoot of the spider drive that allows ftl com to punch through to the beta or delta band

(anybody in the 'new school' reading this? - wish list for the fat guy in ugly read suit, white beard & black boots)

-David S.
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