non charisian Navy ships

Some questions.
Assumption - steam engine development so far has been in relatively slow engines. Is the metallurgy available to develop high speed engines and the complex transmissions they require?
I think the development of fuels for these faster engines would be considered as new uses of allowed procedures, i.e. distillation. I believe petroleum refining is a form of distillation which makes it an allowed process.
How do the Proscriptions deal with "new" knowledge developed in Universities? For example, germ theory.
Is the chemical makeup of granular powder the same as the original meal powder. If not, is it a proscriptions violation?
Same question for chocolate powder, smokeless powder and "Lewisyte".

EdThomas wrote:Some questions.
Assumption - steam engine development so far has been in relatively slow engines. Is the metallurgy available to develop high speed engines and the complex transmissions they require?
I think the development of fuels for these faster engines would be considered as new uses of allowed procedures, i.e. distillation. I believe petroleum refining is a form of distillation which makes it an allowed process.
How do the Proscriptions deal with "new" knowledge developed in Universities? For example, germ theory.
Is the chemical makeup of granular powder the same as the original meal powder. If not, is it a proscriptions violation?
Same question for chocolate powder, smokeless powder and "Lewisyte".

According to RFC the answer to these answers is YES.

However myself and others feel that based on what is described the answer should be NO.

Basically there are a great many hidden steps needed to get from the technology level described in the first book to where RFC took them in story.

If you ever watch a programme called Connections (Either version) you see how interconnected this knowledge is.

Furthermore most stories like this. Sometimes called the 'Giving radio to the Romans" storyline ignores what has been said by many philosophers of science. Specifically that most inventions need both physical and social conditions to flourish. Steam engines in particular can reasonably be traced back to Ptolomaic egypt and temple miracles. However it wasn't until 2000 years later that a compelling need (Mine pumping) became widespread enough to cause widespread adoption of the technology.

Also in the interest of good storytelling he has massively compressed how long it takes a technology to become truely ubiquitous. In our world even cellphones took 30 years to mature as a technology from 1980 to about 2010 and that is not even counting the "Smart phone" aspect but just the phone aspect.

Another example is how long economics caused sail powered craft to linger. Despite steam becomming common in the 1830s and 1840s the final death knell for sailing coasters wasn't until the U-Boat depridations of WW1 where thier very low spead made them excessivly vulnrable to the subs.

One than that is criminally under-discussed in the book and should be holding both sides back is the lack of machine tools. Especially the modern steal cutting lathe which is essential to making everything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_lathe This is a technology so core to all the advancements in bolt actions and complex steam engines it really should have been discussed much more.

Kael Posavatz wrote:The documentation regarding steam engines was recovered by Clyntahn's Inquisition. Also, they were in the form of general operating principals rather than detailed plans.

Assuming Clyntahn didn't have all documentation burned after reading, I think Duchairn has/had three realistic options. 1) Sit on them, 2) distribute to one CoGA artisans, 3) broadly distribute them. He could have anathematized the steam engine, but then Charis is back in the 'deviltry' business and ain't nobody (but Charis) was ready to resume the war. SNIP .

I'm pretty sure that there is a scene where Clyntahn and his main henchman is positively gloating over the notes, and his possession of them.

To me, that then implies that he would be granting the neccesary 'permissions' to develop tham asap.

He may have done so before his death, but off stage, in which case it would be simple to say "well, even Clyntahn said steam engines were ok!" - voila - no problem!

Silverwall wrote:.

Furthermore most stories like this. Sometimes called the 'Giving radio to the Romans" storyline ignores what has been said by many philosophers of science. Specifically that most inventions need both physical and social conditions to flourish. Steam engines in particular can reasonably be traced back to Ptolomaic egypt and temple miracles. However it wasn't until 2000 years later that a compelling need (Mine pumping) became widespread enough to cause widespread adoption of the technology.
.

Not only compelling need, but also the science and technology level. The mathematical apparatus, capable of describing of working steam engine did not exist until late medieval, and up to XVIII century, the manufacturing quality was not sufficient to build such engine with reasonable cost.

So in theory, Roman Empire could build steam engine capable of some practical work - but economicall, said engine would be a utter disaster. All parts would need to be manufactured with tolerances, which in Roman times could be described only as "jewelry". The cost would massively overcame any benefits.

I'm pretty sure that there is a scene where Clyntahn and his main henchman is positively gloating over the notes, and his possession of them.

Well, it seems to be the very rare (possibly unique) moment, when Clyntahn was geniunely awed...

IIRC, the Church industrial guy (Brother Lincoln?) was researching how to build steam engines based on the notes the Inquisition had stolen, but hadn't developed anything useful before the war ended.

evilauthor wrote:IIRC, the Church industrial guy (Brother Lincoln?) was researching how to build steam engines based on the notes the Inquisition had stolen, but hadn't developed anything useful before the war ended.

so that would imply that the permissions had been granted by Clyntahn.

Silverwall wrote:One than that is criminally under-discussed in the book and should be holding both sides back is the lack of machine tools. Especially the modern steal cutting lathe which is essential to making everything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_lathe This is a technology so core to all the advancements in bolt actions and complex steam engines it really should have been discussed much more.

Very few people complain RFC doesn't do enough infodumps.

Randomiser wrote:

Silverwall wrote:One than that is criminally under-discussed in the book and should be holding both sides back is the lack of machine tools. Especially the modern steal cutting lathe which is essential to making everything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_lathe This is a technology so core to all the advancements in bolt actions and complex steam engines it really should have been discussed much more.

Very few people complain RFC doesn't do enough infodumps.

Doesn't have to be an info dump but a couple of extra lines in the logistics planning meetings he writes would make a bit difference for me and be educational for many... we don't need one of his legendary infodumps. Or they could have talked about the destruction of the machine tooling and relocting it after the massive fire at the ironworks.

Randomiser wrote:

Silverwall wrote:One than that is criminally under-discussed in the book and should be holding both sides back is the lack of machine tools. Especially the modern steal cutting lathe which is essential to making everything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_lathe This is a technology so core to all the advancements in bolt actions and complex steam engines it really should have been discussed much more.

Very few people complain RFC doesn't do enough infodumps.

To the true machine-tool enthusiast, there is no such thing as too much information.

I'm not an engineer. I have to go back to the demonstration to Thirsk of the precision of the parts of the rifles. I remember thinking all those precisely made small parts couldn't have been made with just casting and forging so they must have developed metal cutting machines to be able to achieve the volumes they did. My dad was a machinist. I remember he talked about milling machines where a revolving cutter was applied to metal. From a machine standpoint is that all that different than a lathe? With each you precisely apply a blade to the well-secured object to remove part of the object. It seems to me you can't produce complex metal parts unless you have both lathes and milling machines. I assumed (I know, I know) they had both types of machines.