When did Honor become the MVP?

Theemile wrote:

Kael Posavatz wrote:From 1908 back to, oh, immediately after Cassimer they were aware of her ability and giving her assignments to match. Fearless I wasn't a hate-move by Hemphill, it was a case of giving her test vessel to the best officer available (who didn't have the connections to get out of it), and the assignment to Basilisk was Janacek being petty. And it's probably worth noting that Theisman is a flag captain in SVW, the same as Honor.

I'd bump that to before Cassimere, to the RMN actually handing her the Hawkwing. The RMN only gave a few Lt. Commanders a Destroyer before running them through the Crusher, and she was one of them. So she was already marked as someone with the appropriate command ability - WITHOUT the required schooling (even through she would get it later.) She might not have been MVP then, but she certainly stood out ahead of the pack.

We are forgetting that MVP is the BEST not the perfect. People were quite aware of Honor back in Short Victorious War. She had enemies and the leadership knew that. But she was given the best new ship in the navy and an absolutely plus Flag Captain assignment. White Haven and others already knew how good she was.

ldwechsler wrote:We are forgetting that MVP is the BEST not the perfect. ...

I think people are also forgetting that MVP is an annual or seasonal award -- Honor certainly qualifies as a multiple winner.

People are treating the original question as, "When did Honor become the GOAT?" instead of MVP.

ETA: Who would be the contenders (top three) for MVP each year since 1900PD through 1922PD?

Weird Harold wrote:ETA: Who would be the contenders (top three) for MVP each year since 1900PD through 1922PD?

We don't know enough to say.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:ETA: Who would be the contenders (top three) for MVP each year since 1900PD through 1922PD?

We don't know enough to say.

Not for every year, but for the major events (battles) we can make a fair guess most of the time.

ldwechsler wrote:Flag Captain assignment.

I question exactly how much of an honor being "a" flag captain is, given how overly supplied the RMN is with flag officers on shipboard duty. Think about it: in a six ship squadron of SDs three captains are going to be flag captain to a divisional commander, with a fourth being flag captain to the squadron commander (assuming they aren't wearing a second hat as a divisional commander. If that squadron also happens to contain the fleet/task force commander, possibly five of the six captains are going to be a flag captain to a senior officer (assuming no one is wearing multiple hats, which does frequently happen).

Surely there's more prestige involved in being the flag captain to a task force or fleet commander than there is to the divisional commander of a half-squadron of heavy cruisers, but the way the math works about 35-40% of captains are acting as flag captains to someone at any given time, and that percentage goes up the heavier the ships involved are (as low as one in eight for destroyers up to a maximum of five out of six for SDs)

ldwechsler wrote:We are forgetting that MVP is the BEST not the perfect. ...

Weird Harold wrote:I think people are also forgetting that MVP is an annual or seasonal award -- Honor certainly qualifies as a multiple winner.

People are treating the original question as, "When did Honor become the GOAT?" instead of MVP.

MVP may generally be annual in sports; but that is because sports have seasons. In an ongoing activity, such as war, it may be that someone stays MVP until their accomplishments are exceeded by someone else..
We will not know about GOAT until perhaps the war is over; but then we would have to compare her to Saganami and other historical figures.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Flag Captain assignment.

I question exactly how much of an honor being "a" flag captain is, given how overly supplied the RMN is with flag officers on shipboard duty. Think about it: in a six ship squadron of SDs three captains are going to be flag captain to a divisional commander, with a fourth being flag captain to the squadron commander (assuming they aren't wearing a second hat as a divisional commander. If that squadron also happens to contain the fleet/task force commander, possibly five of the six captains are going to be a flag captain to a senior officer (assuming no one is wearing multiple hats, which does frequently happen).

Surely there's more prestige involved in being the flag captain to a task force or fleet commander than there is to the divisional commander of a half-squadron of heavy cruisers, but the way the math works about 35-40% of captains are acting as flag captains to someone at any given time, and that percentage goes up the heavier the ships involved are (as low as one in eight for destroyers up to a maximum of five out of six for SDs)

A division in the Honorverse for the RMN is one half of a squadron. For the old (pre-High Ridge) establishment of an 8 ship squadron, a division is 4 ships. Each squadron would have 2 division commanders, each with a flag captain. Add the squadron commander and his flag captain and you have only 3 flag captains, maximum, as usually the squadron commander will be acting as a division commander, for a normal total of only 2 flag officers and flag captains for 8 ships.

tlb wrote:MVP may generally be annual in sports; but that is because sports have seasons. In an ongoing activity, such as war, it may be that someone stays MVP until their accomplishments are exceeded by someone else..

Time magazine doesn't call their annual cover-person a MVP, but the concept is the same. Nobel prize winners aren't called MVPs, but the concept is the same.

ESPies aren't called MVPs, but the concept is the same.

There are innumerable awards that are periodic, independent of anything except the calendar.

Vince wrote:A division in the Honorverse for the RMN is one half of a squadron. For the old (pre-High Ridge) establishment of an 8 ship squadron, a division is 4 ships. Each squadron would have 2 division commanders, each with a flag captain. Add the squadron commander and his flag captain and you have only 3 flag captains, maximum, as usually the squadron commander will be acting as a division commander, for a normal total of only 2 flag officers and flag captains for 8 ships.

BatCruRon5 (SVW) had four divisions. Two led by commodores and two led by Captain's SG. Sarnow was not double-hatted, as I recall, first division was on Agamemnon and it got destroyed early.

BatRon 61 (AAC) has six ships in three 2-ship divisions (and something like 5 flag officers since it was also hosting fleet command).

Kael Posavatz wrote:

Vince wrote:A division in the Honorverse for the RMN is one half of a squadron. For the old (pre-High Ridge) establishment of an 8 ship squadron, a division is 4 ships. Each squadron would have 2 division commanders, each with a flag captain. Add the squadron commander and his flag captain and you have only 3 flag captains, maximum, as usually the squadron commander will be acting as a division commander, for a normal total of only 2 flag officers and flag captains for 8 ships.

BatCruRon5 (SVW) had four divisions. Two led by commodores and two led by Captain's SG. Sarnow was not double-hatted, as I recall, first division was on Agamemnon and it got destroyed early.

BatRon 61 (AAC) has six ships in three 2-ship divisions (and something like 5 flag officers since it was also hosting fleet command).

This. Battlecruisers and lower still seem to have eight ship squadrons post-High Ridge, while the wall is in six ship squadrons. I think carriers were in eight ship squadrons but I could be wrong about that. The wall definitely had two ship divisions even pre-war and that continued throughout.

Battlecruisers and heavy cruisers are definitely in two ship divisions from the beginning, and light cruisers and destroyers are in four-ship divisions and eight ship squadrons throughout. Destroyers are also grouped into flotillas early in the war but the size is never strictly defined that I recall - possibly 12 or 16 ships.