non charisian Navy ships

couple of things to consider about non-Charisian shipbuilding going forward.

1) They showed the world their revised sail plans (okay, hard to hide sails). Is there any reason to think they might not share 'new' propulsive systems, especially if they have something even better in the works? There was a very nascent petrochemical industry in the making in last books, that might have become something where oil (and steam turbines rather than reciprocating engines) becomes practical.

2) Charis is in much the same place where the USN/RN were in needing to protect far-flung maritime interests. The only remaining naval power of any note is Dohlar. Given the very different maritime environment it faces, we might consider some of the design choices made by Germany and Italy in our quest for parallels.

Kael Posavatz wrote:couple of things to consider about non-Charisian shipbuilding going forward.

1) They showed the world their revised sail plans (okay, hard to hide sails). Is there any reason to think they might not share 'new' propulsive systems, especially if they have something even better in the works? There was a very nascent petrochemical industry in the making in last books, that might have become something where oil (and steam turbines rather than reciprocating engines) becomes practical.

Haven't they more or less already?

Although I will point out that one Siddarmark sail maker that went out of business because he had no idea how to cut the new sail patterns. His son wound up being one of those Temple Loyalist rioters during the Sword of Scheuler.

So if you can't duplicate new sail patterns just by seeing them on existing ships, duplicating the much more complicated steam engines and water propeller designs is going to be even more difficult without direct Charisian assistance.

That said, anyone NOT getting direct Charisian assistance is probably throwing a lot of R&D into trying to catch up.

evilauthor wrote:
Although I will point out that one Siddarmark sail maker that went out of business because he had no idea how to cut the new sail patterns. His son wound up being one of those Temple Loyalist rioters during the Sword of Scheuler.

If the, ahem,'intellectual processes', of the son were anything to go by, the dad couldn't have been the sharpest needle in the sail-loft. I always took it 'dad' was one of the "It's always been done this way" bunch who wasn't willing to try to change. They are going to find the future a very hard place.

As people keep saying, the Inner Circle, i.e their Charisan Majesties, are desperate to see an industrial revolution all over Safehold, so there is absolutely no doubt they will sell anyone with the marks steam powered machinery, at as low a price as they can make look reasonable. Once foreign governments have access to working steam engines, manuals and trained engineers, their ship builders are going to be very busy working out how to make steam powered warships. "Simples" as the Meercat said.

Randomiser wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
Although I will point out that one Siddarmark sail maker that went out of business because he had no idea how to cut the new sail patterns. His son wound up being one of those Temple Loyalist rioters during the Sword of Scheuler.

If the, ahem,'intellectual processes', of the son were anything to go by, the dad couldn't have been the sharpest needle in the sail-loft. I always took it 'dad' was one of the "It's always been done this way" bunch who wasn't willing to try to change. They are going to find the future a very hard place.

As people keep saying, the Inner Circle, i.e their Charisan Majesties, are desperate to see an industrial revolution all over Safehold, so there is absolutely no doubt they will sell anyone with the marks steam powered machinery, at as low a price as they can make look reasonable. Once foreign governments have access to working steam engines, manuals and trained engineers, their ship builders are going to be very busy working out how to make steam powered warships. "Simples" as the Meercat said.

Dad was definitely not the sharpest knife in the box of tools - if I recall correctly, he made sure his son was apprenticed to another sailmaker.

evilauthor wrote:

Kael Posavatz wrote:couple of things to consider about non-Charisian shipbuilding going forward.

1) They showed the world their revised sail plans (okay, hard to hide sails). Is there any reason to think they might not share 'new' propulsive systems, especially if they have something even better in the works? There was a very nascent petrochemical industry in the making in last books, that might have become something where oil (and steam turbines rather than reciprocating engines) becomes practical.

Haven't they more or less already?

Although I will point out that one Siddarmark sail maker that went out of business because he had no idea how to cut the new sail patterns. His son wound up being one of those Temple Loyalist rioters during the Sword of Scheuler.

So if you can't duplicate new sail patterns just by seeing them on existing ships, duplicating the much more complicated steam engines and water propeller designs is going to be even more difficult without direct Charisian assistance.

That said, anyone NOT getting direct Charisian assistance is probably throwing a lot of R&D into trying to catch up.

Charis allowed mainland realms to see their new propulsive technology (sail plans) in the past. Granted, disguising it would have been a real pain in the ass, and probably not worth the effort, but it happened past tense.

My point is that if tech has advanced to a point where steam turbines are practical (which means higher pressure boilers, and probably oil as a fuel source, in addition to the turbines themselves). they might go ahead and let plans for reciprocating steam engines 'slip.' This would enable continued naval superiority while also giving the mainland realms another technological bump.

Kael Posavatz wrote:My point is that if tech has advanced to a point where steam turbines are practical (which means higher pressure boilers, and probably oil as a fuel source, in addition to the turbines themselves). they might go ahead and let plans for reciprocating steam engines 'slip.' This would enable continued naval superiority while also giving the mainland realms another technological bump.

My point, made several times, is that reciprocating steam engines are what you need to pump out mines, run factory machinery and drive locomotives. So Charis will not 'let them slip' but aggressively market them - whether or not they have marine turbines for themselves. (The problem may be the metallurgy for the blades)

Randomiser wrote:My point, made several times, is that reciprocating steam engines are what you need to pump out mines, run factory machinery and drive locomotives. So Charis will not 'let them slip' but aggressively market them - whether or not they have marine turbines for themselves. (The problem may be the metallurgy for the blades)

That is a pretty good point.

I was thinking in the context of the thread, making naval technology a driver for a general surge in available tech. Your point about there being other places they could penetrate is exceedingly well-made.

My concern about an aggressive marketing strategy is that there were deliberate shenanigans to get the steam engine past the Proscriptions. Too aggressive a marketing campaign could lead back to accusations of Shan Wei-worship and deviltry. A more subtle marketing strategy would allow a native agency (Dohlar, most probably) to go 'look at what we've figured out how to do!' while allowing Charis to maintain deniability.

The latter is probably a little too underboard, but some balance between the two should be possible.

Kael, my POV on this is that however steam engines got past the Proscriptions to start with the option to ban them is long gone.They now have a bona fide warrant from the CoC which is not going to be revoked. Everybody who matters, up to and including the Grand Vicar, knows the Charisians have them and that they are fundamental to the Charisan production and war fighting revolution. No one can afford to ban them, literally. They are all going to be at the nasty end of a big enough trade deficit with the EoC as it is. Think about gunpowder, it's commonly thought it only got through after palms were well greased, but no one even imagines its acceptance could be rolled back now. Steam engines are in the same category. The EoC do have them and are keeping them so every other government with two brain cells to rub together knows that it needs them as well.

Kael Posavatz wrote:That is a pretty good point.

I was thinking in the context of the thread, making naval technology a driver for a general surge in available tech. Your point about there being other places they could penetrate is exceedingly well-made.

My concern about an aggressive marketing strategy is that there were deliberate shenanigans to get the steam engine past the Proscriptions. Too aggressive a marketing campaign could lead back to accusations of Shan Wei-worship and deviltry. A more subtle marketing strategy would allow a native agency (Dohlar, most probably) to go 'look at what we've figured out how to do!' while allowing Charis to maintain deniability.

The latter is probably a little too underboard, but some balance between the two should be possible.

During the war documents describing steam engines were stolen, and given that it is not that difficult to build a bad steam engine, there will have been small experimental prototypes already by the war's end. So the mainland is already on its way to develop steam engines, even if not that efficient ones.
Furthermore the point of the King Haaralds was exactly to drive home the point that anyone with any kind of naval ambition would need steam power, armor and heavy artillery.
With pneumatics getting known some nations with tighter budgets and looking for a coastal defense fleet might opt to skip the battleships and go for torpedo boats, but these need powerful engines too.
This ensures that any political power will try to block any ban on steam, and I very much doubt that Duchairn will waste his power on trying to enforce a ban when he is trying to mend fences.
And as a last point, if some places ban steam engines, it is too bad for them. Steam engines just need to be spread wide enough, not necessarily everywhere.

Whitecold wrote:
During the war documents describing steam engines were stolen, and given that it is not that difficult to build a bad steam engine, there will have been small experimental prototypes already by the war's end. So the mainland is already on its way to develop steam engines, even if not that efficient ones.

The documentation regarding steam engines was recovered by Clyntahn's Inquisition. Also, they were in the form of general operating principals rather than detailed plans.

Assuming Clyntahn didn't have all documentation burned after reading, I think Duchairn has/had three realistic options. 1) Sit on them, 2) distribute to one CoGA artisans, 3) broadly distribute them. He could have anathematized the steam engine, but then Charis is back in the 'deviltry' business and ain't nobody (but Charis) was ready to resume the war.

Option 3 is the best chance to 'level the field' against Charis, but Duchairn has no real reason to believe that Charis is planning to resume fighting (Merlin & Company know differently of course).

Option 2 tries to re-exert CoGA's traditional dominance on Safehold by making itself the source of technology (outside the schism, of course). This would also be a nifty source of revenue. (I'm channeling BattleTech with this idea, as it also has a creepy cult dedicated to making sure that IT is the source of advanced technology).

Option 1 The Church is naturally conservative against new ideas. Additionally, technological growth is inherently destabilizing to the status quo. One of Duchairn's concerns is restoring long-term social stability, of which there has been precious little of in the world for the last ten or fifteen years. Having CoGA actually backing something like the steam engine would be incredibly destabilizing to N.Harchong's economy/social matrix. The prelates in this area are already almost in defiance to Duchairn. Something like steam power might push them over into the open defiance he has been trying to avoid.

For myself, I think Duchairn might come up with something along the lines of approving the technology...and then putting it in his pocket anyway as the distribution of approved ideas are a purely secular matter.

In any case, I don't see the Church as distributing/pushing steam power.