Trellheim, Sharleyan and the ICA

Isilith wrote:Seriously, Charis should be buying favor, or literally buying, the larger Trellheim holdings. Just like they should be doing with the Raven Lords.

Buying favor isn't the way to deal with pirates. Paying off pirates just emboldens them. Pay danegeld and you will never get rid of the Dane.

Scaring the bejeezus out of them and making them need to change their slop trousers repeatedly and often, on the other hand, works pretty well.

Having them pay YOU off for the privilege of you killing just some of them (instead of ALL of them) works even better.

That being said, I doubt that the Trelheimers are any place close needing something like that.

They are so outclassed it's ridiculous and they know it. They are scavengers trying to feed on scraps while there are REALLY big predators about. The less attention they draw to themselves, the more likely they can keep scavenging instead of getting swallowed whole.

The English spent a couple centuries trying to buy off the Scots (the Earth analogs to the Raven Lords). We all know how well that worked. How many times did the Scots raid England before the Stuarts too the English throne? How many uprisings did they have after unification?

A healthy respect and a very circumspect caution will go much further than gold in that case, too. don't think that the Raven Lands weren't paying attention during the the war.

evilauthor wrote:
And... who is going to build these schooners? And more importantly, where are the guns to arm these schooners going to come from?

Oh please! There was a world war on Safehold just a few years ago. There are literally more cannons around Haven and Howard than anyone could count. Quite a lot of nations would be perfectly willing to sell their old-style artillery to basically anybody for any price more than the cost of metal. Charis too, actually - the idea that "arming pirates is a wrong thing" would hardly be consistent with the average Charisian mindset, even if the Crown would try something like that.

And also there are literally hundreds of thousands trained sailors and gunners around, a lot of them would have no problems with going mercenary.

Dilandu wrote:

evilauthor wrote:
And... who is going to build these schooners? And more importantly, where are the guns to arm these schooners going to come from?

Oh please! There was a world war on Safehold just a few years ago. There are literally more cannons around Haven and Howard than anyone could count. Quite a lot of nations would be perfectly willing to sell their old-style artillery to basically anybody for any price more than the cost of metal. Charis too, actually - the idea that "arming pirates is a wrong thing" would hardly be consistent with the average Charisian mindset, even if the Crown would try something like that.

And also there are literally hundreds of thousands trained sailors and gunners around, a lot of them would have no problems with going mercenary.

Maybe after the war, but during it? Not a chance.

Of course, we're now set after the war, but even then I would expect a ship load of new model cannons to cost a pretty penny, and the ships to carry them even more so. Who's going to be supplying the Trellheim pirates who probably aren't swimming in cash to pay for those armaments? Certainly not Mother Church or Harchong. And I think even Desnair doesn't want to piss off Charis again any time soon.

And of course, everyone of the major nations is going to be motivated to update their militaries to keep up with Charis, and all those leftover cannons can be used to do that even if only for their metal content.

So who exactly is going to be arming Trellheim pirates and risk pissing the most powerful empire in the world off? Especially since Trellheim almost certainly can't pay up front for said armaments?

evilauthor wrote:
Maybe after the war, but during it? Not a chance.

Of course, we're now set after the war, but even then I would expect a ship load of new model cannons to cost a pretty penny, and the ships to carry them even more so. Who's going to be supplying the Trellheim pirates who probably aren't swimming in cash to pay for those armaments? Certainly not Mother Church or Harchong. And I think even Desnair doesn't want to piss off Charis again any time soon.

And of course, everyone of the major nations is going to be motivated to update their militaries to keep up with Charis, and all those leftover cannons can be used to do that even if only for their metal content.

Considering that those cannons are obsolete smoothbore muzzle-loaders, all more or less indusrtrialized powers would be just glad to get rid of them for any price more that gunmetal cost.

Seriously, the war ended. There are MUCH more obsolete cannons in Temple Land, Charis, Dohlar and Siddarmark than they might ever need in peacetime. And wuth the exception of Charis, all are seeking for money.

So who exactly is going to be arming Trellheim pirates and risk pissing the most powerful empire in the world off? Especially since Trellheim almost certainly can't pay up front for said armaments?

Anyone. Including Charisians. You are mistakengly assuming the XXI-century mentality for Safeholdians, while it is much close to XVIII mentality. Profit is everything, profit worth any crime, as long as you could get away with it. Selling weapons is NOT the political - it is still pretty much private buisness. Even Charisian parliament would found it... puzzling, why the Crown suddenly start to interfer with "honest peoples just trying to make some more marks".

and all those leftover cannons can be used to do that even if only for their metal content.

Er...

Those guns are bronze/cast-iron. The modern-type guns that they needed to compete with Charis are wrought-iron or steel.

There were SOME examples of modern bronze rifled guns in early XX century - for example, sone Austria-Hungarian howitzers - but they were exceptions.

jtg452 wrote:

Isilith wrote:Seriously, Charis should be buying favor, or literally buying, the larger Trellheim holdings. Just like they should be doing with the Raven Lords.

Buying favor isn't the way to deal with pirates. Paying off pirates just emboldens them. Pay danegeld and you will never get rid of the Dane.

Scaring the bejeezus out of them and making them need to change their slop trousers repeatedly and often, on the other hand, works pretty well.

Having them pay YOU off for the privilege of you killing just some of them (instead of ALL of them) works even better.

That being said, I doubt that the Trelheimers are any place close needing something like that.

They are so outclassed it's ridiculous and they know it. They are scavengers trying to feed on scraps while there are REALLY big predators about. The less attention they draw to themselves, the more likely they can keep scavenging instead of getting swallowed whole.

The English spent a couple centuries trying to buy off the Scots (the Earth analogs to the Raven Lords). We all know how well that worked. How many times did the Scots raid England before the Stuarts too the English throne? How many uprisings did they have after unification?

A healthy respect and a very circumspect caution will go much further than gold in that case, too. don't think that the Raven Lands weren't paying attention during the the war.

You misunderstand, I am not talking about paying them off. I was speaking about investing with them and making deals with the locals, basically economic colonialism. Make them friends, beholden to Charis. Make them into de facto, or outright, parts of the Charisian Empire.

Isilith wrote:
You misunderstand, I am not talking about paying them off. I was speaking about investing with them and making deals with the locals, basically economic colonialism. Make them friends, beholden to Charis. Make them into de facto, or outright, parts of the Charisian Empire.

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Investing into what? And for whom profit exactly? Charis already have enormous space for internal investments in Emerald, Corisand and Tarot.

Not to mention that such politics often failed. By 1914, France and Britain was the majors investors into Ottoman Empire, holding her enormous debts. Still, the Ottomans preferred to throw their lot with Germany and Central Powers, not Entente.

I think prince hector had allies and assets amongst the Trellheim pirates. Coris could develop those ties using trade and bribes. That could be a great location for a forward operating base for trade and operations near dohlar and around harchong.

Isilith wrote:

After what happened to the Temple's massive invasion armada, can you really blame them?

Then, there's the riverine strikes on the canal locks by the steam boats just to prove that Charis controlled brown water as well as blue.

Heck, I would have been leery of big mud puddles much less a whole bath tub full of water.

Dilandu wrote:Er...

Those guns are bronze/cast-iron. The modern-type guns that they needed to compete with Charis are wrought-iron or steel.

There were SOME examples of modern bronze rifled guns in early XX century - for example, sone Austria-Hungarian howitzers - but they were exceptions.

And you can't use all that bronze for other applications?

Hmm... what would a society in the middle of an industrial revolution use bronze for? I can't believe the stuff is so worthless that governments would give bronze cannons away to pirates even if said pirates' normal prey is that government's nominal enemies.

evilauthor wrote:
And you can't use all that bronze for other applications?

Hmm... what would a society in the middle of an industrial revolution use bronze for? I can't believe the stuff is so worthless that governments would give bronze cannons away to pirates even if said pirates' normal prey is that government's nominal enemies.

You are making the same mistake, assuming that legal weapon trade is preformed only by governments. While till the XX century, the majority of international weapon trade was done by completely private enterprises. Some private trader could easily brought surplus guns and then re-sell them to Trellheim for his own cut of pirate's booty. Even Charisians could easily do that (let's not forget, that the glorious Ahrmahk dynasty was initially nothing more than a bunch of pirate lords, who terrorized Charisian settlements!) - and most of them would not see anything morally wrong in arming the pirates.