When did Honor become the MVP?

cthia wrote:In my warped brain, she became the MVP the moment the Havenites began to fear her. Boogeyman? Salamander? Honor kept the Peeps honest. Her value was priceless then.

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:The earliest mention of her being the "Salamander", that I can find, is in Chapter 8 of Honor Among Enemies. Is that right?

[snip]

Since that is early in the book, it still supports Flag in Exile.

I think your Flag In Exile bid is a really good contender. It is backed up by critical moments in the following novel, Honor Among Enemies. In Honor Among Enemies Honor won over Hauptman and tipped the balance of the political arena against her and stacked the deck more so in her own favor. Politics began to lose its sting against her then, having the Hauptmans in her corner. Stacy spearheaded that. Having your bacon saved by the woman you hate, along with your daughter, after what you tried to do to her, just might do the trick to win you over too.

Bill Woods wrote:Plus, in the 'what goes around comes around' category, in HAE she establishes a non-boogeyman relationship with honorable Peeps, Warner Caslet & Shannon Foraker, which pays off in later books.

Plus, her Dudley Do Right of the Manties persona preceded her to every corner of the galaxy. To Hell on Cerberus and back and even into Andermani space.

Honor didn't just call Hamish on his crap, or dress down the WDB. She gave a Heads-of-State on another planet an ultimatum, and even chastised her own Queen on political matters - making Beth see her as an equal.

I need to cross reference these two additional points in their chronological order in the series and draw a triangle.

When the Peeps began to fear her is also what caused her to be tasked with Operation Cutworm where textev points out that she roled out the use of the Katana-class LAC.

Wasn't Honor the one who tested the waters for all of the new tech? Isn't she the one who irons out the kinks and squeezes every drop of utility out of it?

rolled out a lot of the new tech? yes as the admiralty made up for lack of hulls in eight fleet by giving her as many bleeding edge ships as they could to balance the sheer numerical deficit she was working with.

a case for testing the podnought concept and some of the early Shirke LAC tech in HAE could be made and she wrote the WDB brief but it was left to other like Alice Truman and Jackie Harmon to really make the LACs work.

so i'll grant she has had a lot of influence on how the new tech was used but most of that was simply due to the pressure of wartime forcing the RMN to commit the tech early.

cthia wrote:In my warped brain, she became the MVP the moment the Havenites began to fear her. Boogeyman? Salamander? Honor kept the Peeps honest. Her value was priceless then.

cthia wrote:

tlb wrote:The earliest mention of her being the "Salamander", that I can find, is in Chapter 8 of Honor Among Enemies. Is that right?

[snip]

Since that is early in the book, it still supports Flag in Exile.

I think your Flag In Exile bid is a really good contender. It is backed up by critical moments in the following novel, Honor Among Enemies. In Honor Among Enemies Honor won over Hauptman and tipped the balance of the political arena against her and stacked the deck more so in her own favor. Politics began to lose its sting against her then, having the Hauptmans in her corner. Stacy spearheaded that. Having your bacon saved by the woman you hate, along with your daughter, after what you tried to do to her, just might do the trick to win you over too.

Bill Woods wrote:Plus, in the 'what goes around comes around' category, in HAE she establishes a non-boogeyman relationship with honorable Peeps, Warner Caslet & Shannon Foraker, which pays off in later books.

Plus, her Dudley Do Right of the Manties persona preceded her to every corner of the galaxy. To Hell on Cerberus and back and even into Andermani space.

Honor didn't just call Hamish on his crap, or dress down the WDB. She gave a Heads-of-State on another planet an ultimatum, and even chastised her own Queen on political matters - making Beth see her as an equal.

I need to cross reference these two additional points in their chronological order in the series and draw a triangle.

When the Peeps began to fear her is also what caused her to be tasked with Operation Cutworm where textev points out that she roled out the use of the Katana-class LAC.

Wasn't Honor the one who tested the waters for all of the new tech? Isn't she the one who irons out the kinks and squeezes every drop of utility out of it?[/quote]

She became an MVP for me on page 1 of On Basilisk Station. But she was clearly NOT in that category when she was beached in Field of Dishonor.

Clearly she became a real number one when she brought back the fleet from Cerberus. Made a duchess at that time, etc. And time after time she proved herself.

As for testing new stuff, that happens when the tech turns up. She was not first with Ghost Rider or the LACs. But she sure knew how to use them.

tlb wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Based on her writings and published photos, Governor Palin was a "late bloomer." Of course she had really "blossomed" by the time she competed in the Miss Alaska pagent and motherhood enhanced her.

Hurray for Late Bloomers!

cthia wrote:I also smile when I think about Honor's gawky stage while hanging around a well developed Henke. How could it not have appeared like Henke was babysitting?

Talk about an odd couple.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Don't get me started thinking about a well developed Henke!

Of course prolong probably had a humiliating effect on young men who arrived at Saganami Island still looking prepubescent in the showers.

cthia wrote:Quite humiliating.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:And Duckk threatens me with the ban hammer?

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I would much prefer to focus my attention and imagination on a prematurely and spectacularly developed Henke.

She probably perfected her math skills by analyzing the magnitude and frequency of her undamped harmonic oscillations.

The adolescent totality pretty well explains why you have been threatened with a ban. You might last longer in the forum if you could keep your mind out of the showers.

Weber is the one who writes the shower scenes.

Im just the one who reads them, again, again and again.

Dauntless wrote:rolled out a lot of the new tech? yes as the admiralty made up for lack of hulls in eight fleet by giving her as many bleeding edge ships as they could to balance the sheer numerical deficit she was working with.

a case for testing the podnought concept and some of the early Shirke LAC tech in HAE could be made and she wrote the WDB brief but it was left to other like Alice Truman and Jackie Harmon to really make the LACs work.

so i'll grant she has had a lot of influence on how the new tech was used but most of that was simply due to the pressure of wartime forcing the RMN to commit the tech early.

Agreed. Except, wasn't Truman initially a part of Honor's posse at the time, before she was tapped to oversee LAC strategy and tactics?

Dauntless wrote:rolled out a lot of the new tech? yes as the admiralty made up for lack of hulls in eight fleet by giving her as many bleeding edge ships as they could to balance the sheer numerical deficit she was working with.

a case for testing the podnought concept and some of the early Shirke LAC tech in HAE could be made and she wrote the WDB brief but it was left to other like Alice Truman and Jackie Harmon to really make the LACs work.

so i'll grant she has had a lot of influence on how the new tech was used but most of that was simply due to the pressure of wartime forcing the RMN to commit the tech early.

cthia wrote:Agreed. Except, wasn't Truman initially a part of Honor's posse at the time, before she was tapped to oversee LAC strategy and tactics?

If you have text of Alice Truman and Honor discussing how to use a LAC squadron after HAE, then that would be a better point. Truman commanded the Q-ship Parnassus and was second to Honor, but there is big difference between the two situations.

tlb wrote:

Dauntless wrote:rolled out a lot of the new tech? yes as the admiralty made up for lack of hulls in eight fleet by giving her as many bleeding edge ships as they could to balance the sheer numerical deficit she was working with.

a case for testing the podnought concept and some of the early Shirke LAC tech in HAE could be made and she wrote the WDB brief but it was left to other like Alice Truman and Jackie Harmon to really make the LACs work.

so i'll grant she has had a lot of influence on how the new tech was used but most of that was simply due to the pressure of wartime forcing the RMN to commit the tech early.

cthia wrote:Agreed. Except, wasn't Truman initially a part of Honor's posse at the time, before she was tapped to oversee LAC strategy and tactics?

If you have text of Alice Truman and Honor discussing how to use a LAC squadron after HAE, then that would be a better point. Truman commanded the Q-ship Parnassus and was second to Honor, but there is big difference between the two situations.

See my point that you have a hard-on for all things cthia?

My point is that Truman was a fixture in Honor's inner circle for quite some time. Even the drunken wiki can attest to that. So much so that a lot of the detail between the two run together for me. But I hardly think any sentiment leaning towards Honor's positive tactical influence on her inner circle of friends is out of order. Or a stretch.

Do get a grip on yourself man. Doh! Again, no sexual undertones.

Mama mia.

it is very possible that Alice and Honor discussed it a lot after they both got back from Silesia, but we have no idea how that took for either Honor or Alice. Honor after all was on Maternity leave and was pretty firmly rooted in the Binary system until she left for Grayson after the kittens were born and old enough to travel, which why she was available for the WDB stint, so their is nothing to say she didn't ring Honor and arrange to meet up and talk when she made it back.

part of it will depend when Alice was tapped to take Command of Minotaur. a CLAC is DN sized and being the first of her type ever built she won't have been a quick build, so probably a 2 year build. Now knowing from the start that it was a radical concept meant they deliberately choose a forward thinking officer. no doubt having had LACs on her last ship was a big point in her favour, as having had something of jury rigged Carrier a proper one would not be as mind boggling to her as it would anyone who wasn't on one of the four Q-ships.

I won't deny that Alice may have started to think a bit like Honor. often happens when people work together a lot. the fact that Alice was also a veteran of the Grayson expedition just reinforces that.

my only point was that even with Honor's input in the very early development stage, it wasn't until some time after her supposed death that Minotaur had all her LACs and Alice and Jackie could start turning the theory into reality and the new LACs were different enough from what was used in Silesia that I expect there were a lot of hiccups in the process.

I suppose one point we should consider is at what point the MVP trophy is being handed out, because it places limits on what information the awards committee has available for consideration.

The problem with Truman/Minotaur comes from a discussion she and Jackie Harmon had. I don't have the exact chapter, but it's when they're discussing a sim and Harmon got her teeth kicked in, and Truman says something to the effect of 'the new fleet types make too much sense to be delayed for forever, but we can't afford to wait that long.' The ships (or at least a ship) had been built. Testing was in progress. The avalanche was moving down hill and the question wasn't 'is it going to bury the Peeps?' It was 'when is it going to bury the Peeps?'

But the point that makes all that possible is when Honor convinces Hemphill's most staunch opponent to reconsider his decision and objectively look at the merits of the proposal.

Dauntless wrote:it is very possible that Alice and Honor discussed it a lot after they both got back from Silesia, but we have no idea how that took for either Honor or Alice. Honor after all was on Maternity leave and was pretty firmly rooted in the Binary system until she left for Grayson after the kittens were born and old enough to travel, which why she was available for the WDB stint, so their is nothing to say she didn't ring Honor and arrange to meet up and talk when she made it back.

part of it will depend when Alice was tapped to take Command of Minotaur. a CLAC is DN sized and being the first of her type ever built she won't have been a quick build, so probably a 2 year build. Now knowing from the start that it was a radical concept meant they deliberately choose a forward thinking officer. no doubt having had LACs on her last ship was a big point in her favour, as having had something of jury rigged Carrier a proper one would not be as mind boggling to her as it would anyone who wasn't on one of the four Q-ships.

I won't deny that Alice may have started to think a bit like Honor. often happens when people work together a lot. the fact that Alice was also a veteran of the Grayson expedition just reinforces that.

my only point was that even with Honor's input in the very early development stage, it wasn't until some time after her supposed death that Minotaur had all her LACs and Alice and Jackie could start turning the theory into reality and the new LACs were different enough from what was used in Silesia that I expect there were a lot of hiccups in the process.

Very interesting posts Dauntless and Kael. In fact, every post is really interesting.

Another reason I considered that Honor may have influenced Alice's tactics is because there was a tendency to exchange mail and Alice and Honor were rather fond of each other. I also seem to recall one of Honor's very dearest inner circle being tapped for that command. Tremaine. Which offers up another avenue for Honor's teachings to have effected LAC strategy.