When did Honor become the MVP?

I think that was offset some by her activities in the Avalanche and saving the ratings in the power room. Honor was one of the few people to command a Destroyer prior to going through the Crusher. I'd say Young's efforts merely mitigated Honor's good deeds. Honor still moved up the ranks at an above average pace.

ywing14 wrote:I think that was offset some by her activities in the Avalanche and saving the ratings in the power room. Honor was one of the few people to command a Destroyer prior to going through the Crusher. I'd say Young's efforts merely mitigated Honor's good deeds. Honor still moved up the ranks at an above average pace.

IIRC, Michelle was senior to Honor before the events of _On Basilisk Station_. The double promotion put Honor ahead, where she has stayed.

Amazing insight all around.


I have to learn to deal with my own baggage. I was miffed that Honor rode around in, well if they were cars I'd call them AMC Pacers. 'Ouch!' She didn't get to play with heavy metal until Nike.

But that's not a fair gripe on my part, I know it. Honor had to learn different commands before she was ready for a BC and to be part of someone else's force. TBH, I never thought it was a fitting use of her talent as backup to someone else's order of battle. She was always the better commander, IMO. Beauracracy and red tape held her back. For instance, it came off as a waste to me when she had to put up with Parks. Honestly, name one time she was part of someone else's forces but wasn't the better commander.

It seems to me that her political career took off faster than her naval career, and she hated politics. Go figure.

In my warped brain, she became the MVP the moment the Havenites began to fear her. Boogeyman? Salamander? Honor kept the Peeps honest. Her value was priceless then.

I wish I could find that particular post of RFC's. I recalled him mentioning Hamish as being more valuable when I was complaining about her riding in tin cans.

I just can't put my finger on a well demarcated line where it first became clear that she was the 'Cats meow. And for certain, there will be a world of difference between what the Manties and Graysons will ultimately say about it.

Many of you certainly make some compelling arguments. I've come across a few really good votes. All of them are really interesting.

It's as if she woke up one morning and she was it. On several occasions I remember thinking, hey, she's doing Caparelli's thinking for him. Honor's understanding of war seemed way above average. Winning battles and mastering tactics is one thing, but she seemed to know why the Peeps did what they did. She was always able to get inside their head. Which seemed way above her paygrade to me, yet she was still riding in tin cans and suffering imbeciles.

When she reprimanded Hamish about the new weapon systems, it didn't come as a surprise to me. Well, the part about her being the better officer between her and Hamish, that is. IMO, that came long before she had to jerk his chain about the new weapon systems.

I ain't apologizing for calling Honor's first Fearless an AMC Pacer. I liked that bucket of bolts and the heights Honor took her, but come on, way too many other CO's were wasting some much heavier metal. Or rather, much heavier metal that Honor should have had was wasted on jackasses.

If I ever get a chance to address the right people at the Admiralty, I'd say she was the MVP long before politics allowed her to accept the award. Now when exactly that was beats me.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I think that was offset some by her activities in the Avalanche and saving the ratings in the power room. Honor was one of the few people to command a Destroyer prior to going through the Crusher. I'd say Young's efforts merely mitigated Honor's good deeds. Honor still moved up the ranks at an above average pace.

IIRC, Michelle was senior to Honor before the events of _On Basilisk Station_. The double promotion put Honor ahead, where she has stayed.

Is that true? I think you may be correct. Michelle was already in the navy when Honor got there? ISTR something about her taking Honor under her wing. Did someone formally ask that of Michelle?

I also smile when I think about Honor's gawky stage while hanging around a well developed Henke. How could it not have appeared like Henke was babysitting?

Talk about an odd couple.

And of course, how much of Honor's initial troubles stemmed from her humorous first impressions caused by prolong.

Come on, how can anyone take an odd looking gawking horse seriously? There's a high probability that her embarrassing prolong stage is when Young thought she was weak and a viable target.

IIRC, textev, in the form of Courvoisier's inner thoughts, didn't support Honor growing out or her awkward, homely stage until. . . well, by OBS she had outgrown prolong's setbacks. By Raoul's account.

cthia wrote:In my warped brain, she became the MVP the moment the Havenites began to fear her. Boogeyman? Salamander? Honor kept the Peeps honest. Her value was priceless then.

The earliest mention of her being the "Salamander", that I can find, is in Chapter 8 of Honor Among Enemies. Is that right?

"My God," Aubrey murmured. He warned himself not to get too excited. After all, Lady Harrington had been all but forcibly banished after her scandalous duels. It was entirely possible she was being shuffled off to exactly the sort of oblivion Aubrey had assumed this assignment must be, but he couldn't believe it. The woman the newsies had dubbed "the Salamander" from her habit of always being where the fire was hottest was too good a combat commander for that. And it hadn't exactly been the Navy's idea to put her on half-pay to begin with. If the Fleet had her back again, surely they'd want to make the best use they could of her!

Since that is early in the book, it still supports Flag in Exile.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Honor Harrington does NOT become the MVP until the end of WAR OF HONOR. She is the ONLY RMN Admiral that wins a victory by defeating Havenite forces at Sidemore. She also negotiates an alliance with the Adermandi Empire. At this point she rises to the status of a STRATEGIST rather than a TACTICIAN.

Keep in mind that while Michelle Henke has an extremely competent career, she never is placed into a situation where she commands in a Death Ride until AAC. Otherwise Mike would be a contender for MVP.

Note that the reason that Haven split off forces to attack Sidemore was the presence of Honor and her aura of invincibility. There is no question that Sidemore was important, but it was a sideshow. The source of that victory was the unexpected presence of the Protector's Own; it is easy to be a strategist when you have double the strength that the enemy planned to face. You might as well say the final proof of status was the Battle of Manticore.
Honor's position in those battles was predicated on her recognized status as one of the best fighters in the navy. So her consideration as MVP has to arrive before then.

the fact that she saved her ship during her middy cruise, helped rescue avalanche survivors etc all were good indications to any of the the non polticals that she was a good officer and that was rewarded with Hwaking before the Crusher.

the fact that she then went on to stop the peeps attack on basilisk, took her wounded CA on a guaranteed death ride against a BC also gained her much respect. The events of First Hancock just cemented it.

but really i'd say it is the events of Flag in Exile that did it. her pinnace shot down, she kills and captures those who did so, following that she has a duel with an expert swordsmen to avenge the deaths of so many children, then on barely an hours sleep she takes her small squadron of SDs and escorts against an enemy fleet fully expecting to die and wins.

that is what forever made Honor's reputation as a very dangerous person. it is further demonstrated in Honor Against enemies when she starts making lots of long range plan for the admiralty. at that point she is looking beyond her position as just ship captain. looking beyond even what most fleet commanders would consider and is starting to making serious plans for the SKM.

cthia wrote:

I also smile when I think about Honor's gawky stage while hanging around a well developed Henke. How could it not have appeared like Henke was babysitting?

Talk about an odd couple.

Don't get me started thinking about a well developed Henke!

Of course prolong probably had a humiliating effect on young men who arrived at Saganami Island still looking prepubescent in the showers.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:IIRC, Michelle was senior to Honor before the events of _On Basilisk Station_. The double promotion put Honor ahead, where she has stayed.

Correct. SVW states that the two had last seen each other 6 years before Honor comes aboard Nike and Henke had been senior to her at that point - presumably due to Henke being promoted at the typical speed of non-connected officers which she'd insist on while Honor was held back somewhat by various North Hollow allies in the Navy. I'm assuming that meant the two were the same grade but Henke was senior by date of rank. Of course, by the time the two meet again Honor is two ranks senior to Henke and stays so (or more) until Henke is promoted to full admiral in SoF.

cthia wrote:Is that true? I think you may be correct. Michelle was already in the navy when Honor got there? ISTR something about her taking Honor under her wing. Did someone formally ask that of Michelle?

The two were in the same class at the academy. What was expected when the staff paired them was that Henke would help Honor develop political awareness and social skills while Honor helped Henke in more technical areas and tactics.