BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

cthia wrote:I meant to post a while back that the wiki supports the upgraded performance of DBs - pulling 800 gravities. I just don't know how accurate it is. I simply assumed that it must be correct since these things oftentimes fetch the cavalry and putting the pedal to the medal is routine for them.

I wonder just how standard a design they are throughout the galaxy and whether some of the more financially secure owners' personality, and bank account, is reflected.

I would imagine news agencies have their own flavor of tech to include in the design from the keel up. Making for some unusual designs in appearance.

At any rate, DBs seem to be a wild card throughout the series.

The wiki data is rather interesting.

On several occasions, ISTR, the RMN detached a warship for the duty. DBs don't just sit in port, they have the most mileage of any vessel in space.


The wiki also says they have a crew of about 10. Which makes me feel even more that at least a single knowledgeable naval officer should have been included aboard that fateful DB tasked to fetch Tsang.

They have a crew of about 10? I wonder how much the crew can be downsized?

ldwechsler wrote:In a galactic world most news could wait just a bit. Filareta's loss was a big deal but did not affect people in the League all that directly unless they had a relative on board the ships.

As for the large crews, I would guess that people were required to be on duty at all times so you needed several watches. Figure at least three people at the helm and three dealing with engineering. Plus you need someone to handle things liking cooking, etc. There should be a captain and maybe a second in command. Think of communications. Undoubtedly a lot of the crew handle more than one task. But DB's might have to spend a long time in transit. I remember Rabenstrang spoke of being in one for ten days.

Filareta's loss did not affect people in the League!?! This was the biggest Battle Fleet sent out in centuries and it was crushingly defeated. Everyone who thought the SLN was invincible must have stopped and wondered how those neobards cheated. Suddenly the Manticore versus Haven war was not cavemen using rocks and clubs, but a serious challenge; made worse by them joining together.

cthia wrote:I meant to post a while back that the wiki supports the upgraded performance of DBs - pulling 800 gravities. I just don't know how accurate it is. I simply assumed that it must be correct since these things oftentimes fetch the cavalry and putting the pedal to the medal is routine for them.

I wonder just how standard a design they are throughout the galaxy and whether some of the more financially secure owners' personality, and bank account, is reflected.

I would imagine news agencies have their own flavor of tech to include in the design from the keel up. Making for some unusual designs in appearance.

At any rate, DBs seem to be a wild card throughout the series.

The wiki data is rather interesting.

On several occasions, ISTR, the RMN detached a warship for the duty. DBs don't just sit in port, they have the most mileage of any vessel in space.


The wiki also says they have a crew of about 10. Which makes me feel even more that at least a single knowledgeable naval officer should have been included aboard that fateful DB tasked to fetch Tsang.

They have a crew of about 10? I wonder how much the crew can be downsized?

ldwechsler wrote:In a galactic world most news could wait just a bit. Filareta's loss was a big deal but did not affect people in the League all that directly unless they had a relative on board the ships.

As for the large crews, I would guess that people were required to be on duty at all times so you needed several watches. Figure at least three people at the helm and three dealing with engineering. Plus you need someone to handle things liking cooking, etc. There should be a captain and maybe a second in command. Think of communications. Undoubtedly a lot of the crew handle more than one task. But DB's might have to spend a long time in transit. I remember Rabenstrang spoke of being in one for ten days.

tlb wrote:Filareta's loss did not affect people in the League!?! This was the biggest Battle Fleet sent out in centuries and it was crushingly defeated. Everyone who thought the SLN was invincible must have stopped and wondered how those neobards cheated. Suddenly the Manticore versus Haven war was not cavemen using rocks and clubs, but a serious challenge; made worse by them joining together.

I definitely agree, tlb. Not to mention the family members aboard the many other ships floating about space likely to encounter Manties.

There are probably many other ways the League was affected from Filareta's loss. A Superpower's economy can become adversely affected by losing its BMOC award. The League may have lost many investors.

And of course, the loss of an overall sense of safety. A new luxury Graysons have relished since the Star Kingdom's visit. It's a real joy to sleep with both eyes closed.

tlb wrote:Thank you for your explanation of what Beowulf should have done. I assume that having missed the timing for the correct moment to secede, you would have them concentrate on the next three points and not leave until the crisis was over.
My only quibble is in point 3, I think you are too dismissive of a sheep's will to survive.
(edit)
Having thought some more, I should say that I still find the analogy to marriage and divorce to be objectionable and the use of the words treason and karma to sow more discord than enlightenment. But your prescription might have kept most of the heat off Beowulf.
There are two additional things that you might want to address. The first is what will happen, under your scenario, when the League finds that Beowulf has been helping Manticore rebuild and rearm after the Yawata Strike (including the manufacture of missile and defense platforms)? Second is what will happen when the League decides to fortify the end of the wormhole at Beowulf?

You were definitely right to quibble with my sentiment about sheep, which I admit is one of the myths I held onto from childhood. I did a little research to confirm some of those myths are indeed just myths. At any rate, I take back what I said about sheep.

I really do think Beowulf simply should have ridden it out until after the war. Deciding to secede during a knock-down-drag out fight was sure to be seen as sticking a knife in the back of its own founding, by the leaders of the founding. Beowulf was sure to be seen as backstabbers.

Something else bothers me though I couldn't quite put a finger on it until now.

The SL's arrogance had become a disease. They couldn't help themselves. The League is a complicated piece of machinery that has become infested, infected and affected by rats. You know how difficult it can be when bugs are in the software? Try rats in the hardware.

Beowulf didn't treat their husband as if he was afflicted with a terrible disease. And he was.

Instead of using their newfound bf's muscles to throw punches, Beowulf could have used the SEM as the wind beneath its wings of a most powerful platform to finally force the League, and the Mandarins, to listen. It's as if Beowulf simply gave up on talking or really trying to affect change within the ugly gorilla, when they finally had the ability to force him to listen. Beowulf wasn't willing to endure anymore trips to a therapist.

With the SEM in her corner, Beowulf's embassy could have become the League's nightmare. What's that medicine used to wane addicts off of opiates? Ah, methadone. While dating the SEM, Beowulf was finally in a real position to become the League's methadone. To affect change. To finally wean them off of their arrogance and complacence.

About your sentiment. . .

tlb wrote:The first is what will happen, under your scenario, when the League finds that Beowulf has been helping Manticore rebuild and rearm after the Yawata Strike (including the manufacture of missile and defense platforms)? Second is what will happen when the League decides to fortify the end of the wormhole at Beowulf?

A damn good question, but your guess is as good as mine. Of course, the instigating voice on my shoulder says the reality of these truths are going to fester in the hearts of many, birthing a lot of scorned League citizens left with the same mindset of revenge, as Leonard Detweiler. There'll come a time - Beowulf and the SEM - that you will rue the day.

"Ok boys. It's been half a century. Let's go stomp some maggots."

"Yessir, Admiral. I'm itching to show our new toys to the galaxy. Now everyone will soon find out why we were so feared. INDUSTRIAL MIGHT makes RIGHT!"

When you stomp a palmetto bug, you have to ensure that you completely destroy her egg sack.

The League is stomped, but her egg sack is left intact.

One day, lots of roaches are going to hyper into the MBS.

cthia wrote: What's that medicine used to wane addicts off of opiates? Ah, methadone. While dating the SEM, Beowulf was finally in a real position to become the League's methadone. To affect change. To finally wean them off of their arrogance and complacence.

From an article about the difference between Methadone and other painkillers.

Methadone is a long-lasting synthetic opioid that purposely lacks the chemicals to produce the euphoric high associated with other narcotic drugs like heroin, hydrocodone and oxycodone.

Methadone does share a few key similarities with standard opioid painkillers. By tampering with methadone tablets, some people can access the opioid euphoria typically associated with other painkillers. Likewise, despite its use in addiction treatment, methadone joins other painkillers in its potential for causing addiction and dependence.

If taking methadone properly and for legitimate reasons, the medical staff will monitor dosage level and help safeguard against addiction. People who take methadone independently and/or recreationally lack these safeguards and have a much higher risk of developing an addiction. In either case, professional rehabilitation is the most effective way to deal with any addiction, including methadone.

Could someone tell me if Sir Lyman Carmicheal is related to the Crown. I thought I read somewhere that he is, but cannot find the reference.

Unless I overlooked it, it's nowhere in this thread either.

cthia wrote:You were definitely right to quibble with my sentiment about sheep, which I admit is one of the myths I held onto from childhood. I did a little research to confirm some of those myths are indeed just myths. At any rate, I take back what I said about sheep.

I really do think Beowulf simply should have ridden it out until after the war. Deciding to secede during a knock-down-drag out fight was sure to be seen as sticking a knife in the back of its own founding, by the leaders of the founding. Beowulf was sure to be seen as backstabbers.

Something else bothers me though I couldn't quite put a finger on it until now.

The SL's arrogance had become a disease. They couldn't help themselves. The League is a complicated piece of machinery that has become infested, infected and affected by rats. You know how difficult it can be when bugs are in the software? Try rats in the hardware.

Beowulf didn't treat their husband as if he was afflicted with a terrible disease. And he was.

Instead of using their newfound bf's muscles to throw punches, Beowulf could have used the SEM as the wind beneath its wings of a most powerful platform to finally force the League, and the Mandarins, to listen. It's as if Beowulf simply gave up on talking or really trying to affect change within the ugly gorilla, when they finally had the ability to force him to listen. Beowulf wasn't willing to endure anymore trips to a therapist.

With the SEM in her corner, Beowulf's embassy could have become the League's nightmare. What's that medicine used to wane addicts off of opiates? Ah, methadone. While dating the SEM, Beowulf was finally in a real position to become the League's methadone. To affect change. To finally wean them off of their arrogance and complacence.

How would you have wanted them to use Manticore? If I remember correctly Beowulf had been trying to affect change through its representatives to the SL for at least 30 or 40 years. I'm not debating the fact they didn't commit treason before they seceded or their decision to seceded in general. I may have missed it where you discuss this further but sorry there's like 40 pages. I'm just not sure what more they could have done before hand.

ywing14 wrote:

cthia wrote:You were definitely right to quibble with my sentiment about sheep, which I admit is one of the myths I held onto from childhood. I did a little research to confirm some of those myths are indeed just myths. At any rate, I take back what I said about sheep.

I really do think Beowulf simply should have ridden it out until after the war. Deciding to secede during a knock-down-drag out fight was sure to be seen as sticking a knife in the back of its own founding, by the leaders of the founding. Beowulf was sure to be seen as backstabbers.

Something else bothers me though I couldn't quite put a finger on it until now.

The SL's arrogance had become a disease. They couldn't help themselves. The League is a complicated piece of machinery that has become infested, infected and affected by rats. You know how difficult it can be when bugs are in the software? Try rats in the hardware.

Beowulf didn't treat their husband as if he was afflicted with a terrible disease. And he was.

Instead of using their newfound bf's muscles to throw punches, Beowulf could have used the SEM as the wind beneath its wings of a most powerful platform to finally force the League, and the Mandarins, to listen. It's as if Beowulf simply gave up on talking or really trying to affect change within the ugly gorilla, when they finally had the ability to force him to listen. Beowulf wasn't willing to endure anymore trips to a therapist.

With the SEM in her corner, Beowulf's embassy could have become the League's nightmare. What's that medicine used to wane addicts off of opiates? Ah, methadone. While dating the SEM, Beowulf was finally in a real position to become the League's methadone. To affect change. To finally wean them off of their arrogance and complacence.

How would you have wanted them to use Manticore? If I remember correctly Beowulf had been trying to affect change through its representatives to the SL for at least 30 or 40 years. I'm not debating the fact they didn't commit treason before they seceded or their decision to seceded in general. I may have missed it where you discuss this further but sorry there's like 40 pages. I'm just not sure what more they could have done before hand.

Indeed. I understand your question. And its fair. In case you haven't read it, I touched on it a bit here. I'll pull at that thread a bit more.

I agree. Beowulf had talked and talked and talked until they were blue in the face. But I can't help but feel that their efforts were hampered by having no wind beneath their wings. Until the RMN, they never had the ability to talk from a position of power. They had no real power against a corrupted government and Constitution. Beowulf continued to play by the rules when the Mandarins had long thrown the rule book (Constitution) out. They couldn't afford to be truly rebellious until the RMN. Until then, they simply sounded like a nagging housewife. When that nagging housewife suddenly puts on a few pounds, is bringing home the bacon and is now wearing the pants, what does she do with her new found power? Get her house in order, or flee?

They really had no real political power, since the Mandarins were watering everything down but the front lawn.

All of Beowulf's previous talks had no bite and were too subdued. They couldn't play hard ball with the League and rap it on the snout to get its attention. Which could have come by way of formal press conferences, bypassing the middle men. The only way Beowulf was going to affect change by talking was to talk directly to the people and threaten secession. They couldn't afford to do that weighing in at a buck-o-five.

Enter their new bf. Suddenly, Beowulf can afford to be gutsy in their talks. They certainly became gutsy in their actions.

But their embassy never ever became a factor after the RMN. A time it should have grown some balls. Beowulf's embassy was a waste, IMO. Which should have changed after they began courting real muscles.

Ignoring the Mandarins and taking matters into their own hands in a series of strategic press confrences directed right at the man in the street should have become her new tactic. She wants a divorce now that a marriage counselor can make a difference.

Don't you at least pause when considering that Beowulf could have chosen to help bring the Mandarins down but remain part of the League it help found, instead of using its newly found windfall to flee instead of affect change?


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Would it have been a bad thing had they remained a part of the League now that a new sheriff is in town? Who's to keep an eye on the Solarian misfits now? And in about 50 years. . .

"Manticore, where for art thou black channel of rats?"

When they really really need them now. When the newly risen SLN has become 800# again, but this time all lean, mean and no fat atall.

cthia wrote:Indeed. I understand your question. And its fair. In case you haven't read it, I touched on it a bit here. I'll pull at that thread a bit more.

I agree. Beowulf had talked and talked and talked until they were blue in the face. But I can't help but feel that their efforts were hampered by having no wind beneath their wings. Until the RMN, they never had the ability to talk from a position of power. They had no real power against a corrupted government and Constitution. Beowulf continued to play by the rules when the Mandarins had long thrown the rule book (Constitution) out. They couldn't afford to be truly rebellious until the RMN. Until then, they simply sounded like a nagging housewife. When that nagging housewife suddenly puts on a few pounds, is bringing home the bacon and is now wearing the pants, what does she do with her new found power? Get her house in order, or flee?

They really had no real political power, since the Mandarins were watering everything down but the front lawn.

All of Beowulf's previous talks had no bite and were too subdued. They couldn't play hard ball with the League and rap it on the snout to get its attention. Which could have come by way of formal press conferences, bypassing the middle men. The only way Beowulf was going to affect change by talking was to talk directly to the people and threaten secession. They couldn't afford to do that weighing in at a buck-o-five.

Enter their new bf. Suddenly, Beowulf can afford to be gutsy in their talks. They certainly became gutsy in their actions.

But their embassy never ever became a factor after the RMN. A time it should have grown some balls. Beowulf's embassy was a waste, IMO. Which should have changed after they began courting real muscles.

Ignoring the Mandarins and taking matters into their own hands in a series of strategic press confrences directed right at the man in the street should have become her new tactic. She wants a divorce now that a marriage counselor can make a difference.

Don't you at least pause when considering that Beowulf could have chosen to help bring the Mandarins down but remain part of the League it help found, instead of using its newly found windfall to flee instead of affect change?


S

P

O

I

L

E

R



Would it have been a bad thing had they remained a part of the League now that a new sheriff is in town? Who's to keep an eye on the Solarian misfits now? And in about 50 years. . .

"Manticore, where for art thou black channel of rats?"

When they really really need them now. When the newly risen SLN has become 800# again, but this time all lean, mean and no fat atall.

As usual, you trot out all the negatives again when talking about Beowulf.

You really have it in for Beowulf, don't you? Because you can't stop talking about Beowulf in derogatory or belittling terms. Your whole choice of words is typically chauvinistic - because as the "bestest girl" of the League, the "housewife", the "rebellious", the "traitorous" and on and on - she should know her place. How dare she leave the League and join forces with Manticore, she's a bad wife, she's cheating blah blah blah.

What is it that you can't accept about Beowulf? Because something is seriously stuck in your craw.

cthia wrote:
I agree. Beowulf had talked and talked and talked until they were blue in the face. But I can't help but feel that their efforts were hampered by having no wind beneath their wings. Until the RMN, they never had the ability to talk from a position of power. They had no real power against a corrupted government and Constitution. Beowulf continued to play by the rules when the Mandarins had long thrown the rule book (Constitution) out. They couldn't afford to be truly rebellious until the RMN. Until then, they simply sounded like a nagging housewife. When that nagging housewife suddenly puts on a few pounds, is bringing home the bacon and is now wearing the pants, what does she do with her new found power? Get her house in order, or flee?

They really had no real political power, since the Mandarins were watering everything down but the front lawn.

All of Beowulf's previous talks had no bite and were too subdued. They couldn't play hard ball with the League and rap it on the snout to get its attention. Which could have come by way of formal press conferences, bypassing the middle men. The only way Beowulf was going to affect change by talking was to talk directly to the people and threaten secession. They couldn't afford to do that weighing in at a buck-o-five.

Enter their new bf. Suddenly, Beowulf can afford to be gutsy in their talks. They certainly became gutsy in their actions.

But their embassy never ever became a factor after the RMN. A time it should have grown some balls. Beowulf's embassy was a waste, IMO. Which should have changed after they began courting real muscles.

Ignoring the Mandarins and taking matters into their own hands in a series of strategic press confrences directed right at the man in the street should have become her new tactic. She wants a divorce now that a marriage counselor can make a difference.

Don't you at least pause when considering that Beowulf could have chosen to help bring the Mandarins down but remain part of the League it help found, instead of using its newly found windfall to flee instead of affect change?


S

P

O

I

L

E

R



Would it have been a bad thing had they remained a part of the League now that a new sheriff is in town? Who's to keep an eye on the Solarian misfits now? And in about 50 years. . .

"Manticore, where for art thou black channel of rats?"

When they really really need them now. When the newly risen SLN has become 800# again, but this time all lean, mean and no fat atall.

Ahh thanks for posting the Hyperlink. Made it much easier to understand your points. I think you're completely wrong but your points are well argued.

There was never an opportunity for Beowulf to "use Manticore" until near the end of the Second War with Haven. All of your arguments are predicated on Manticore's willingness and position to assist Beowulf. None of this is certain. Frankly, Manticore likely would not have been interested in rocking the boat that much until after New Tuscany and Spindle. None of which was even possible until after the Battle of Manticore.

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:Indeed. I understand your question. And its fair. In case you haven't read it, I touched on it a bit here. I'll pull at that thread a bit more.

I agree. Beowulf had talked and talked and talked until they were blue in the face. But I can't help but feel that their efforts were hampered by having no wind beneath their wings. Until the RMN, they never had the ability to talk from a position of power. They had no real power against a corrupted government and Constitution. Beowulf continued to play by the rules when the Mandarins had long thrown the rule book (Constitution) out. They couldn't afford to be truly rebellious until the RMN. Until then, they simply sounded like a nagging housewife. When that nagging housewife suddenly puts on a few pounds, is bringing home the bacon and is now wearing the pants, what does she do with her new found power? Get her house in order, or flee?

They really had no real political power, since the Mandarins were watering everything down but the front lawn.

All of Beowulf's previous talks had no bite and were too subdued. They couldn't play hard ball with the League and rap it on the snout to get its attention. Which could have come by way of formal press conferences, bypassing the middle men. The only way Beowulf was going to affect change by talking was to talk directly to the people and threaten secession. They couldn't afford to do that weighing in at a buck-o-five.

Enter their new bf. Suddenly, Beowulf can afford to be gutsy in their talks. They certainly became gutsy in their actions.

But their embassy never ever became a factor after the RMN. A time it should have grown some balls. Beowulf's embassy was a waste, IMO. Which should have changed after they began courting real muscles.

Ignoring the Mandarins and taking matters into their own hands in a series of strategic press confrences directed right at the man in the street should have become her new tactic. She wants a divorce now that a marriage counselor can make a difference.

Don't you at least pause when considering that Beowulf could have chosen to help bring the Mandarins down but remain part of the League it help found, instead of using its newly found windfall to flee instead of affect change?


S

P

O

I

L

E

R



Would it have been a bad thing had they remained a part of the League now that a new sheriff is in town? Who's to keep an eye on the Solarian misfits now? And in about 50 years. . .

"Manticore, where for art thou black channel of rats?"

When they really really need them now. When the newly risen SLN has become 800# again, but this time all lean, mean and no fat atall.

As usual, you trot out all the negatives again when talking about Beowulf.

You really have it in for Beowulf, don't you? Because you can't stop talking about Beowulf in derogatory or belittling terms. Your whole choice of words is typically chauvinistic - because as the "bestest girl" of the League, the "housewife", the "rebellious", the "traitorous" and on and on - she should know her place. How dare she leave the League and join forces with Manticore, she's a bad wife, she's cheating blah blah blah.

What is it that you can't accept about Beowulf? Because something is seriously stuck in your craw.

Joat, there seems to be a limit to your understanding of karma. And you hit that ceiling a long time ago and have been back pedaling ever since. What good is talking about the positive things Beowulf did, and there are many, when discussing her flavor of karma?

Besides, her karma didn't come from the good things Beowulf did in the galaxy. It comes from the bad things Beowulf did to the testy Gorilla in the galaxy, with whom she was in a relationship.