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"Star Lines"

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"Star Lines"
Post by Peregrinator   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:04 pm

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Has anyone made this connection before? If so I apologize. In Heinlein's Beyond This Horizon, the protagonist is informed that he is the product of an experiment in genetic uplift:

“Thank you. Felix, the responsibility of improving the race under the doctrines of our republic is not a simple one. We can advise but not coerce. The private life and free action of every individual must be scrupulously respected. We have no weapon but cool reason and the appeal to every man’s wish that the next generation be better than the last. Even with cooperation there is little enough we can do—in most cases, the elimination of one or two bad characteristics, the preservation of the good ones present. But your case is different.”

“How?”

“You know how. You represent the careful knitting together of favorable lines over four generations. Literally tens of thousands of gametes were examined and rejected before the thirty gametes were picked which constitute the linkage of your ancestral zygotes. It would be a shame to waste all that painstaking work.”

“Why pick on me? I am not the only result of that selection. There must be at least a hundred citizens descended from my great-gross-grandparents. You don’t want me—I’m a cull. I’m the plan that didn’t pan out. I’m a disappointment.”

“No,” Mordan said softly, “no, Felix, you are not a cull. You are the star line.”

“Huh?”

“I mean it. It is contrary to public policy to discuss these things, but rules were made to be broken. Step by step, back to the beginning of the experiment, your line has the highest general rating. You are the only zygote in the line which combines every one of the favorable mutations with which my predecessors started. Three other favorable mutations showed up after the original combinations; all of them are conserved in you.”

...

“We selected—our predecessors, I mean—for sound teeth. Today, it would be hard to find a citizen who does not have that dominant from both his parents. We no longer have to select for sound teeth. It’s the same with color blindness, with cancer, with hemophilia, with a great many other heritable defects—we selected and eliminated them, without disturbing in any way the ordinary, normal, biologically commendable tendency for human beings to fall in love with other human beings and produce children. We simply enabled each couple to have the best children of which they were potentially capable by combining their gametes through selection instead of blind chance.”

“You didn’t do that in my case,” Hamilton said bitterly. “I’m a breeding experiment.”

“That’s true. But yours is a special case, Felix. Yours is a star line. Every one of your last thirty ancestors entered voluntarily into the creation of your line, not because Cupid had been out with his bow and arrow, but because they had a vision of a race better than they were. Every cell in your body contains in its chromosomes the blueprint of a stronger, sounder, more adaptable, more resistant race. I’m asking you not to waste it.”

Hamilton squirmed uncomfortably. “What do you expect me to do? Play Adam to a whole new race?”

“Not at all. I want you to perpetuate your line.”


https://www.baen.com/Chapters/978147673 ... 60___3.htm
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by Peregrinator   » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:01 pm

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By the way I'm not accusing RFC of anything except possibly being inspired by a phrase in the book (assuming he's read it).
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:42 pm

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"Star Lines" has never been defined all that well. Some fans seem to think that it refers to a group of experimental lines that are "above alpha." I think they're basically the leading edge of the alphas, that is, the experminental lines that will eventually be merged into the alphas when they prove out.
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by Louis R   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:00 am

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hmmm... my reading is that the star lines come in 3 grades: alpha, beta, gamma. With a place for everyone. And everyone in their place - as predetermined by their genetics.

If old Leonard came back today, he'd probably hose the whole Alignment down with Baygon, then set a match to it. And more than likely nuke the ashes just to be sure. Then go see what he can do to help Allison patch things up on Grayson.

JohnRoth wrote:"Star Lines" has never been defined all that well. Some fans seem to think that it refers to a group of experimental lines that are "above alpha." I think they're basically the leading edge of the alphas, that is, the experminental lines that will eventually be merged into the alphas when they prove out.
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:03 am

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JohnRoth wrote:"Star Lines" has never been defined all that well. Some fans seem to think that it refers to a group of experimental lines that are "above alpha." I think they're basically the leading edge of the alphas, that is, the experminental lines that will eventually be merged into the alphas when they prove out.

While not explicitly defined, they're contrasted with "specialist" lines in CoG. They're supposed to be the superior generalist lines while non-star lines are optimized for specialist tasks. It's discussed in relation to Lajos Irvine being specialized to infiltrate slave populations.

The star lines aren't above alpha, they are the alpha, beta, and gamma lines. They're three tiers of generalists that reflect the best and brightest of the MAlign.
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:58 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:"Star Lines" has never been defined all that well. Some fans seem to think that it refers to a group of experimental lines that are "above alpha." I think they're basically the leading edge of the alphas, that is, the experminental lines that will eventually be merged into the alphas when they prove out.

While not explicitly defined, they're contrasted with "specialist" lines in CoG. They're supposed to be the superior generalist lines while non-star lines are optimized for specialist tasks. It's discussed in relation to Lajos Irvine being specialized to infiltrate slave populations.

The star lines aren't above alpha, they are the alpha, beta, and gamma lines. They're three tiers of generalists that reflect the best and brightest of the MAlign.


I think we're pushing this debate past useful limits. "Star lines" means the best. Of course, we could add "best for what?"

It is almost impossible to define. Yes, the Harrington line is a top notch one but Cousin Devon is basically just a historian. It sounds like he's a good one but nothing spectacular.

Even among the Det kids (clones), they seem to be very different and we've seen some real weaknesses along with their strengths. They are not really doing all that well. The basic plan for their work has been disrupted. Haven never conquered Manticore. They have been exposed. The GA knows about the streak drives (probably enough to recreate them) and knows enough about the spider drives to be able to locate ships using it if necessary.

They've lost a huge amount of money from Mesa and a lot of Manpower planets. Some of the people whose ancestors were part of their group are now opposing them.

They may be star line, but the star involved is a bit dim.

We hear about all sorts of advantages especially for bodyguards but Harahap seems to be just about their best agent. Why didn't they grow good ones?
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by Peregrinator   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:56 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:It is almost impossible to define. Yes, the Harrington line is a top notch one but Cousin Devon is basically just a historian. It sounds like he's a good one but nothing spectacular.

Sure, but the Harringtons have not had their marriage and reproduction planned out by the Long-Range Planning Board. Honor Harrington is a happy accident, so to speak - one that probably would not have happened had the Harringtons' procreation been subject to close Mesan Alignment control.
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by JohnRoth   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:55 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:"Star Lines" has never been defined all that well. Some fans seem to think that it refers to a group of experimental lines that are "above alpha." I think they're basically the leading edge of the alphas, that is, the experminental lines that will eventually be merged into the alphas when they prove out.


Galactic Sapper wrote:While not explicitly defined, they're contrasted with "specialist" lines in CoG. They're supposed to be the superior generalist lines while non-star lines are optimized for specialist tasks. It's discussed in relation to Lajos Irvine being specialized to infiltrate slave populations.

The star lines aren't above alpha, they are the alpha, beta, and gamma lines. They're three tiers of generalists that reflect the best and brightest of the MAlign.


ldwechsler wrote:I think we're pushing this debate past useful limits. "Star lines" means the best. Of course, we could add "best for what?"

It is almost impossible to define. Yes, the Harrington line is a top notch one but Cousin Devon is basically just a historian. It sounds like he's a good one but nothing spectacular.

Even among the Det kids (clones), they seem to be very different and we've seen some real weaknesses along with their strengths. They are not really doing all that well. The basic plan for their work has been disrupted. Haven never conquered Manticore. They have been exposed. The GA knows about the streak drives (probably enough to recreate them) and knows enough about the spider drives to be able to locate ships using it if necessary.

They've lost a huge amount of money from Mesa and a lot of Manpower planets. Some of the people whose ancestors were part of their group are now opposing them.

They may be star line, but the star involved is a bit dim.

We hear about all sorts of advantages especially for bodyguards but Harahap seems to be just about their best agent. Why didn't they grow good ones?


You're looking at a numbers problem. With the number of people in human-settled space, there are going to be a lot more people on the extreme edge of human performance (in absolute numbers) than there are in the entire MAlign. Harahap is very, very good at what he does, but he's hardly unique. Unusual, yes, but not unique.
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:27 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:You're looking at a numbers problem. With the number of people in human-settled space, there are going to be a lot more people on the extreme edge of human performance (in absolute numbers) than there are in the entire MAlign. Harahap is very, very good at what he does, but he's hardly unique. Unusual, yes, but not unique.

That was actually pointed out when Zilwicki and Master Tye take down the first scrag in Chicago. The scrag wrongly assumes his superiority to the average of the human population also means he has the same superiority over all of humanity.

It's addressed in other areas as well, but I don't remember all of them off hand.
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Re: "Star Lines"
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:58 pm

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The Star Lines are the top tiers of the Alignment. The High Casts. The ones in charge.

Almost everything elce is -to the Star Lines- little more than worker drones who happen to be able to repoduce without the aid of artificial wombs and labratories. These are cattle. They are in great part manufactured in industrial scale processes as described when talking about Manpower creating genetic slaves. Property. Tools, at best, which are designed for a range of purposes.

Manpower was created as an industrial scale testing and prodution facility to work on the genetic experiments and proved a manufactured labor force for the Alignment. It had the dual purpose- along with the rest of Mesa- of being a distraction and a misdirection to cloak the Alignment and it's operations such that Mesa and Manpower would ultimatly be sacrificed to permit the Alignment to become the rulers of humanity without having to deal with such unpleasant truths such as the Alignment has been experimenting on humans and modifying them as you would breed dogs for size, color, temperment, particular skills, or (they can't really mention just as sex objects to be sold- can't quite fit that in the Alignment manifesto with a straight face) useful characteristics.
Mere megga billions in credits and billions of human lives first geneticaly manipulated for tools and sold off plus having other hundreds of millions if not hundered of billions slaughtered in how many wars instigated for the sole purpose of wiping away potential opposition of the Alignment installing it self as the absolute ruler (and continued manipulation of what is humanity) over the known universe? The leadership of the Alignment doesn't care about the credits, they care even less about the indivuals or even planitary populations wiped out as long is it advance THE PLAN.

In the eyes of the Alignment Leadership, normals are less than ants, all the non-Star Line Alignment "individuals" are useful tools until no longer needed.

Great system...only if you are on top and have any of those who might be a problem riggged with a nanite based auto-destruct system that has to be reset or the potential problem will JUST DIE.
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