BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

What if Beowulf had a change of heart and didn't like the trap the RMN had so neatly set and decided to flip its allegiance back towards its own founding and somehow assisted the SLN? Now, I don't know what form that could have taken which would have resulted in a victory for the SLN, but I'm sure with Beowulf's assistance (who the RMN trust implicitly) the SLN could have cost the RMN a lot of lives. Would that have been traitorous of Beowulf?

For the broader war, Beowulf could have easily delivered victory to the SLN. Manticore was having Beowulf rebuild their infrastructure and provide missiles! If the Mandarins were a little better at propaganda, not being morons and not being evil psychos they really should have been able to flip Beowulf after the little "oopsie" at Mesa.

Of course, if that was the case they would have thrown Byng under the bus, and would have updated their training with a "How to respond to potential stealth attack" module. Also a "How to not turn off your wedge next to potential hostiles" module.

Now for the second Battle of Manticore, Beowulf would have had to have been particularly treacherous to turn the tide on that. Maybe surprise attack the Manticorian forces on Beowulf's side of the hyperbridge, call for help from Manticore, and capture the ships Manticore sends through. Then finish Manticore with its own fleet.

This reminds me: The Mandarins really should have been investing in brain transplant tech. Preferably with an automatic pocket sized surgeon. Then they could have body snatched their way into control of Beowulf!

cthia wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:All cogent points but you fail to appreciate just how rapidly the strategic situation and the balance of power evolved. Up until the BoM, the SKM was struggling to survive. Up until the deployment of Apollo, the qualitative advantage of the RMN was not yet adequate to overcome the quantative advantage of the SLN. Even after the BoM, the RMN was in no position to safeguard the SEM and take on the SLN. Only after the peace with the Republic of Haven was the RMN so utterly dominant over the SLN.

Only when the above evolution occurred was it was reasonably sensible for Beawulf to seceed from the SL. If the SEM was conquered, there was no way that Beawulf could stand against Haven.

Unfortunately; the situation after deployment of Apollo, the BoM, and the peace with Haven evolved with extreme rapidity. The battles with Bing, Crandlr and Fillarta occurred over how many months? The SLN was already in a shooting war the the RMN before Beawulf had an opportunity to seceed. Secession during war time was the only opportunity.

Actually FLY. The SLN wouldn't have been able to stand up against Haven either, because then it would have all of the SEM's tech. I'll give you that one anyway though, because it has merit and I can certainly agree that safety was in the hearts and on the minds of Beowulf when secession long ago may have entered into its head. Plus the fact that I'm sure Beowulf's parents didn't raise any idiots.

I also understand trying to sneak out of the house when the abusive husband gets in a fight with the new bf. He's preoccupied now.

But, I still find it ill advised to poke the gorilla in the eye on the way out the door. Karma may be as disliked in this thread as the Demon Murphy, but she will not be ignored.

It is not safe for the abused wife to sneak out of the house when he is engaged in an armed standoff with the police. The police might shoot her.

Jonathan's sentiment. Found here if you're concerned with context.

Jonathan_S wrote:Given the Manticore system defenses!!!

A few hundred obsolete SDs dropping in at the hyper limit would have been dead meat to all the MDM pods around Sphinx and Manticore even if 8th fleet wasn't still hanging around assigned as Home Fleet.

Raging Justice had no chance of taking over Manticore and only limited chances of causing serious harm before dying. What lack of notice would have meant was the Manticore wouldn't have been able to put on the show of force that almost succeeded in forcing their surrender without firing a shot and which still kept their destruction from being total. If rushed they may not have had time to temper their system defense response and would have to err on the side of making sure the large number of ships couldn't be a continued threat.

What I don't understand is why that Dispatch Boat didn't tell Filareta that there was one particular problem with Operation Raging Justice.

"Tsang! It's a go! The heat is on! BUT W E! It looks like we were wrong that their Home defenses were destroyed. They look very much intact to us!"

I'm a little in the dark about whether the Dispatch Boat should have been able to see all of the system defense pods ready to fire off and also if it could have seen that the forts were all manned and ready. If so, why didn't it alert Tsang that she was about to sail right into the open mouth of an active volcano - with the fort online and prepared to make it very damn hot for anything incoming!

Of course, it could be that the DB did inform Tsang that she was about to sacrifice her entire force all for naught, but Tsang felt compelled to continue in light of a moment of Elvis Santino-like clarity that she must go through with it anyway because of what her government and peers would think of her. Or even that she would be misunderstood and considered traitorous herself.

I don't recall textev supporting the fact that the DB did or did not see Manticore's system defenses had been intact, although it certainly is obvious after the fact.

It just seems to me - since Operation Raging Justice was dependent and based on a certain truth that the Manty Home defenses had been gutted - that the DB and Filareta would have been given specific directives to abort if that had been the case. Surely Filareta could see that the home defenses were alive and kicking?

cthia wrote:
What I don't understand is why that Dispatch Boat didn't tell Filareta that there was one particular problem with Operation Raging Justice.

"Tsang! It's a go! The heat is on! BUT W E! It looks like we were wrong that their Home defenses were destroyed. They look very much intact to us!"

I'm a little in the dark about whether the Dispatch Boat should have been able to see all of the system defense pods ready to fire off and also if it could have seen that the forts were all manned and ready. If so, why didn't it alert Tsang that she was about to sail right into the open mouth of an active volcano - with the fort online and prepared to make it very damn hot for anything incoming!

Of course, it could be that the DB did inform Tsang that she was about to sacrifice her entire force all for naught, but Tsang felt compelled to continue in light of a moment of Elvis Santino-like clarity that she must go through with it anyway because of what her government and peers would think of her. Or even that she would be misunderstood and considered traitorous herself.

I don't recall textev supporting the fact that the DB did or did not see Manticore's system defenses had been intact, although it certainly is obvious after the fact.

It just seems to me - since Operation Raging Justice was dependent and based on a certain truth that the Manty Home defenses had been gutted - that the DB and Filareta would have been given specific directives to abort if that had been the case. Surely Filareta could see that the home defenses were alive and kicking?

I thinks the DB's are a bit myopic and would not have been able to see that the system defences were all operational.

George J. Smith wrote:

cthia wrote:
What I don't understand is why that Dispatch Boat didn't tell Filareta that there was one particular problem with Operation Raging Justice.

"Tsang! It's a go! The heat is on! BUT W E! It looks like we were wrong that their Home defenses were destroyed. They look very much intact to us!"

I'm a little in the dark about whether the Dispatch Boat should have been able to see all of the system defense pods ready to fire off and also if it could have seen that the forts were all manned and ready. If so, why didn't it alert Tsang that she was about to sail right into the open mouth of an active volcano - with the fort online and prepared to make it very damn hot for anything incoming!

Of course, it could be that the DB did inform Tsang that she was about to sacrifice her entire force all for naught, but Tsang felt compelled to continue in light of a moment of Elvis Santino-like clarity that she must go through with it anyway because of what her government and peers would think of her. Or even that she would be misunderstood and considered traitorous herself.

I don't recall textev supporting the fact that the DB did or did not see Manticore's system defenses had been intact, although it certainly is obvious after the fact.

It just seems to me - since Operation Raging Justice was dependent and based on a certain truth that the Manty Home defenses had been gutted - that the DB and Filareta would have been given specific directives to abort if that had been the case. Surely Filareta could see that the home defenses were alive and kicking?

I thinks the DB's are a bit myopic and would not have been able to see that the system defences were all operational.

Thanks George.

That's why I included the part about Filareta definitely being able to see. In which case he could have alerted the DB to the fact.

"DB! Abort! Abort! I say again, abort!"

Late edit:

Which then would havengiven the DB the same task of rhe Q-ship in OBS of trying to tell the "cavalry" not to come.


As an aside, I've always wondered if DB can be secretly outfitted with upgraded sensors in cases like this? And if those sensors would be detected.

And I'm sure their myopic sensors has a lot to do with the fact they have virtual immunity about the galaxy.
.

cthia wrote:What I don't understand is why that Dispatch Boat didn't tell Filareta that there was one particular problem with Operation Raging Justice.

"Tsang! It's a go! The heat is on! BUT W E! It looks like we were wrong that their Home defenses were destroyed. They look very much intact to us!"

I'm a little in the dark about whether the Dispatch Boat should have been able to see all of the system defense pods ready to fire off and also if it could have seen that the forts were all manned and ready. If so, why didn't it alert Tsang that she was about to sail right into the open mouth of an active volcano - with the fort online and prepared to make it very damn hot for anything incoming!

Of course, it could be that the DB did inform Tsang that she was about to sacrifice her entire force all for naught, but Tsang felt compelled to continue in light of a moment of Elvis Santino-like clarity that she must go through with it anyway because of what her government and peers would think of her. Or even that she would be misunderstood and considered traitorous herself.

I don't recall textev supporting the fact that the DB did or did not see Manticore's system defenses had been intact, although it certainly is obvious after the fact.

It just seems to me - since Operation Raging Justice was dependent and based on a certain truth that the Manty Home defenses had been gutted - that the DB and Filareta would have been given specific directives to abort if that had been the case. Surely Filareta could see that the home defenses were alive and kicking?

George J. Smith wrote: I think the DB's are a bit myopic and would not have been able to see that the system defences were all operational.

Filetra and presumably the courier boat did not see the system defenses because they were hiding until the attack force was within the hyper limit and only became visible when Honor chose to highlight them.
It certainly is true that the courier should have seen that the forts were operation and would have destroyed Tsang's support fleet after transit; but that fleet was blocked. Maybe the courier crew did NOT understand the significance and expected the fleet to fight its way through.
Edit: last sentence should have had a "NOT".

George J. Smith wrote:

cthia wrote:
I thinks the DB's are a bit myopic and would not have been able to see that the system defences were all operational.

Thanks George.

That's why I included the part about Filareta definitely being able to see. In which case he could have alerted the DB to the fact.

"DB! Abort! Abort! I say again, abort!"

cthia

2 things come to mind:

I can't remember how long it was after 11th fleet arrived and the DB translated, but it could have been short enough that a regular comm message would not have reached the DB in time.


Did Filareta know about the proposed MWJ transit part of the plan?

George J. Smith wrote:

cthia wrote:
I thinks the DB's are a bit myopic and would not have been able to see that the system defences were all operational.

Thanks George.

That's why I included the part about Filareta definitely being able to see. In which case he could have alerted the DB to the fact.

"DB! Abort! Abort! I say again, abort!"

George J. Smith wrote:cthia

2 things come to mind:

I can't remember how long it was after 11th fleet arrived and the DB translated, but it could have been short enough that a regular comm message would not have reached the DB in time.


Did Filareta know about the proposed MWJ transit part of the plan?

Thanks again George.

I do recall the moment Honor chose to illuminate those stealthy system defense pods now that you've mentioned it. Which reminds me of another question.* But the pods would not have even come into play against Tsang's fleet, because the fort would have ripped her heart out. No? The hidden pods were only an object of concern to Filareta, and maybe strictly by association and inference an object to Tsang. Because if she had somehow fought off the forts, whatever she had left would have been left way out on a limb if Filareta was already burnt toast.

*About the stealthy pods. Are the pods stealth normally activated? Or do they go active upon the detection of hostile forces? Wouldn't round the clock activation of system defense pods be unrealistic?

Same dilemma of the Manty Home system trying to maintain their current state of readiness, DEFCON 3.

I almost forgot George, excellent points btw and some things I hadn't considered, some I did. One was that under these conditions the DB would have been informed to await Filareta's message, being that he was in charge of the mission, if, as you said and I hadn't considered, Filareta knew about Tsang.

If Filareta didn't know about Tsang, the DB should have been directed to contact him and inform him of the fact and enquired about the disposition of the system defenses.

cthia wrote:I almost forgot George, excellent points btw and some things I hadn't considered, some I did. One was that under these conditions the DB would have been informed to await Filareta's message, being that he was in charge of the mission, if, as you said and I hadn't considered, Filareta knew about Tsang.

If Filareta didn't know about Tsang, the DB should have been directed to contact him and inform him of the fact and enquired about the disposition of the system defenses.

It's such fun to watch the admiring comments of the Filareta fan club. Why no more cheers for the mandarins. AFter all, they planned to bring peace...through conquest.