BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

cthia wrote:..snip..
If the big hairy Ape had foreseen the strategic implications of Beowulf's junction, long long ago when Beowulf became a founder, they'd own it! Which would have drastically changed the landscape and the details of storyline significantly!

Heck, if they'd known the implications of the MWJ long ago, they might never have found themselves in this particular mess.

No.

The League was founded ~310 years before the MWHJ was officially discovered by Manticore. So no one at that time thought anything at all about the MWHJ which means ZERO impact on the story.

And I can't for my life understand why you still try to argue that distancing yourself from a corrupt and abusive entity is treason when the terminology is a political smokescreen invented by the Mandarins and they are fully aware that it is a total lie and they know they are in the wrong and they are only doing it to save their own hide.

And comparing the situation to a marriage is a very poor and tasteless analogy.

Joat42 wrote:No.

The League was founded ~310 years before the MWHJ was officially discovered by Manticore. So no one at that time thought anything at all about the MWHJ which means ZERO impact on the story.

BUT! Beowulf was a founder. And if the League had been aware of the strategic implications of Beowulf's junction - AND SEIZED IT - there's a very good chance they'd have made a play for the MWJ when it appeared over the hyper limit err horizon as well. Especially since then they would have had those same 300 years to think about the implications and game out wormhole assaults against an otherwise unprepared entity at the time.

And I can't for my life understand why you still try to argue that distancing yourself from a corrupt and abusive entity is treason when the terminology is a political smokescreen invented by the Mandarins and they are fully aware that it is a total lie and they know they are in the wrong and they are only doing it to save their own hide.

*sigh - exasperating sigh*


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It ISN'T treason. I agreed straightway that it wasn't treason. I was pointing out that the Mandarins will consider it treason! The Mandarins and many of the arrogant officers under their command will consider secession - and in the middle of a war - treason, and that they will act accordingly! Gees!

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If you don't agree that the Mandarins and many of the idiots they command will consider it treason, then troll your friendly neighborhood author about it and tell him you think Case Buccaneer is an unrealistic mindset to attribute to the Mandarins and the officers under their charge. I can pass the buck now, it doesn't stop here. This junction now exits deep in the heart of South Carolina. LOL

And comparing the situation to a marriage is a very poor and tasteless analogy.

Yet it worked for some of the posters. They get it. I don't know what they have on you.

Tasteless? So be it. However, if this Mandarin truth is tasteless, I am not to blame. A tasteless Mandarin truth called for tasteless measures to facilitate delivery by the messenger charged with getting the message through. The Mandarins set the stage, I'm just trying to explain the tone.

Besides, nothing else was working to convey a truth as obvious to me as a full moon against a clear night sky.

cthia wrote: But the gist of the thread isn't about fault, per se, fine sir. It isn't about legalities and Constitutional rights either. It is about the fact that Beowulf should have known (and they did, which is why they consulted with their new bf and had him hanging out in-system when the Gorilla set sail) what was going to happen to them when the Gorilla took a lot of twos and came up with a lot of fours. That is what this thread is about. If you poke a hornets nest while you're running away. Expect. to. get. stung. Especially if you know they're hornets. Simple as that. Heck, that goes for many a Gorilla too! Who also, get stung!

Cthia (third person out of body experience again, 'cause you still ain't gettin it) simply likes conversation and he ain't afraid of tackling the big issues. He has a mind of his own and he doesn't follow the herd simply 'cause it's in style. I don't have a problem becoming the character, and I could easily see through the eyes of the Mandarins and experience the human element that would surely drive them. Because, I'm human too.

The thread is about Beowulf knowing full-well what was going to happen and chose to play Russian roulette with the lives of, what turned out to be 20M people?

I made my point quite clear in this thread and textev has now supported me, and yet your intransigence continues. Now who among us seems to be the troublemaker? It never was me, not simply because I can see truths that are hidden.

And. . . that darn cthia also has the nerve and audacity to lay it all out there too. Shame on him!

Except the SLN is a paper gorilla (or a paper wasp) with delusions of grandeur and from what little I understand (since I have not yet read the book) many of those deaths had other causes than SLN action.
But even if the SLN was the big gorilla or the swarm of hornets or whatever, you seem to say that the disaster is Beowulf's fault for trying to leave. I say NO: a murder is the fault of the murderer, not the victim; spousal abuse is the fault of the spouse beater, not the spouse.
Beowulf was right to leave and the Mandarins and SLN will be held to account for any damage they cause.
Other than that, what you say above is quite clear and certainly paints a picture.

UH Spoilers:
Again, Beowulf's actions are considered treasonous by the leadership of Beowulf. I'm not sure how anyone could think otherwise seeing as how Beowulf was aiding a country that had declared war on the Solarian League. Now that's arguably justifiable seeing as how the Solarian League was on the mass murder path.

However, they support terrorists. That's treason which they don't have any sort of justification for. Can we at least agree that terrorism is bad?

Just thought that I would post this regarding the anslogy with the American Civil War.

http://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum. ... l-war.html

As this article states, the tariff issue was central to post civil war confederacy apologists. Slavery was the central issue. However; it is unlikely that the Union would have waged a war to subdue the secessionist if not for the tariffs issue along with wanting a captive market and source for raw materials. Also, the aristocratic southern plantation system enabled by slavery was a direct threat to America's middle class farmers. America would have evolved very differently if slsvery had persisted.

I am actually enjoying this thread. Beawulf's "treason" is dependant on one's point of view.

Beawulf probably remained loyal to the SL in spite of the corruption because of the threat posed by Haven. The SL was corrupt but it could protect them from Haven.

Even after the Battle of Manticore and before Oyster Bay, Manticore was not yet so powerful that it could stad off Haven's remaining forces and confront the SLN. Given a few years to rebuild without its ship yards being blown into dust bunnies, the RMN would become a credible deterrent or defender. Only the peade between the SKM and RH made secession from the Solarian League viable. By that time a defacto war was being waged.

quite possibly a cat wrote:However, they support terrorists. That's treason which they don't have any sort of justification for. Can we at least agree that terrorism is bad?

First: supporting terrorism may be illegal, but is not necessarily treason.

Second: genetic slavery is illegal in the Solarian League, but the prohibition is not well enforced. Can we agree that is bad?

Therefore: which is worse?
a) terrorism directed against those who maintain and support genetic slavery
b) maintaining and supporting genetic slavery

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Just thought that I would post this regarding the anslogy with the American Civil War.

http://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum. ... l-war.html

As this article states, the tariff issue was central to post civil war confederacy apologists. Slavery was the central issue. However; it is unlikely that the Union would have waged a war to subdue the secessionist if not for the tariffs issue along with wanting a captive market and source for raw materials. Also, the aristocratic southern plantation system enabled by slavery was a direct threat to America's middle class farmers. America would have evolved very differently if slsvery had persisted.

I should begin by stating that I think that there is a legal way for a state to secede from the USA, but the rebel states skipped over the needed step of a law passed by Congress (which is the inverse of the law passed when a territory becomes a state) and instead began commandeering federal arsenals and then bombarding Fort Sumter. Without regard for the economic analysis (which sounds as though it were invented after the fact), Lincoln believed he had sworn an oath to preserve the Union.
I do not think that the South was a important captive market for the North nor a great source of raw materials. Didn't the South have a greater trade with England? That trade convinced the South that England would support their cause. Since most of the cash crops from the plantations were for export, there was not an economic conflict with Northern farmers. In the end cotton imports for the English textile industry were replaced by imported wool, reducing the incentive to support the South.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I am actually enjoying this thread. Beowulf's "treason" is dependant on one's point of view.

Beowulf probably remained loyal to the SL in spite of the corruption because of the threat posed by Haven. The SL was corrupt but it could protect them from Haven.

Even after the Battle of Manticore and before Oyster Bay, Manticore was not yet so powerful that it could stand off Haven's remaining forces and confront the SLN. Given a few years to rebuild without its ship yards being blown into dust bunnies, the RMN would become a credible deterrent or defender. Only the peace between the SKM and RH made secession from the Solarian League viable. By that time a defacto war was being waged.

I think you are misreading the map. Haven was not close to Beowulf, unless Haven controlled the Manticore Junction. By the time of the Battle of Manticore, Haven was fighting for survival, not for expansion.
Beowulf was part of the Solarian League because of tradition, not fear.

Please excuse the corrections that I made to spelling.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Just thought that I would post this regarding the anslogy with the American Civil War.

http://www.essentialcivilwarcurriculum. ... l-war.html

As this article states, the tariff issue was central to post civil war confederacy apologists. Slavery was the central issue. However; it is unlikely that the Union would have waged a war to subdue the secessionist if not for the tariffs issue along with wanting a captive market and source for raw materials. Also, the aristocratic southern plantation system enabled by slavery was a direct threat to America's middle class farmers. America would have evolved very differently if slsvery had persisted.

Roughly no one supported/opposed secession or the Civil War because of tariffs. That was a post-war invention.