BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

cthia wrote:I am not arguing cthia's position, I am arguing the League's position.

[blink] There's more than one person using the cthia ID?

cthia wrote:Many of you are overlooking the unspoken and implied obligations Beowulf has to the League, when they joined.

I don't think so... I recall that under their Constitution any given member system of the Solarian League has the power to veto any formal declaration of war. I'll grant that they weren't in a formal debate, but to me, they were using their veto on the matter.

cthia wrote:I'm looking at this thing from the SLN's point of view.

Seems more like the Mandarin's point of view, rather than the Solarian League as a whole.

Regardless, if you wish to root for the "bad guys" in this matter, then my participation in the topic is at an end. And, until I'm confident there's only one person on the account, I think my interaction with the cthia UserID will also be curtailed.

Have a pleasant evening.

Exidor wrote:

cthia wrote:I am not arguing cthia's position, I am arguing the League's position.

[blink] There's more than one person using the cthia ID?

cthia wrote:Many of you are overlooking the unspoken and implied obligations Beowulf has to the League, when they joined.

I don't think so... I recall that under their Constitution any given member system of the Solarian League has the power to veto any formal declaration of war. I'll grant that they weren't in a formal debate, but to me, they were using their veto on the matter.

cthia wrote:I'm looking at this thing from the SLN's point of view.

Seems more like the Mandarin's point of view, rather than the Solarian League as a whole.

Regardless, if you wish to root for the "bad guys" in this matter, then my participation in the topic is at an end. And, until I'm confident there's only one person on the account, I think my interaction with the cthia UserID will also be curtailed.

Have a pleasant evening.

Dropping in on the thread late without catching up has the unfortunate side effect of you being lost w/o translation.

Exidor wrote:

cthia wrote:How did Beowulf find out about Raging Justice?Surely it wasn't in the news outlets of Old Earth.

Actually, it was. A Rising Thunder, Chapter 14.

Innokentiy Kolokoltsov considered the message on his display.
Well, it’s hardly a surprise, he thought. And I thought I was ready for it. But I don’t suppose anyone could really be ready for something like this. And the Manties are capitalizing on it, damn them.
He didn’t know how the newsies had first gotten wind of “Operation Raging Justice,” but any secret had a limited shelf life. Sooner or later, somebody always “outed” it, either for some advantage they might gain or simply for the ego stroking newsies gave those “unnamed sources.”

Well before the events under discussion in Chapter 23.

If this has already been noted... I'm simply late to the discussion.

That has also been fielded inasmuch as Beowulf's tattling preceded the news outlets significantly.

Enough to allow several communiqués between Carmichael and the SEM and an eventual trap to be set. In fact, istr Carmichael being warned what was coming.

cthia wrote:I am not arguing cthia's position, I am arguing the League's position.

Exidor wrote: [blink] There's more than one person using the cthia ID?

cthia wrote:Many of you are overlooking the unspoken and implied obligations Beowulf has to the League, when they joined.

Exidor wrote: I don't think so... I recall that under their Constitution any given member system of the Solarian League has the power to veto any formal declaration of war. I'll grant that they weren't in a formal debate, but to me, they were using their veto on the matter.

cthia wrote:I'm looking at this thing from the SLN's point of view.

Exidor wrote:Seems more like the Mandarin's point of view, rather than the Solarian League as a whole.

Regardless, if you wish to root for the "bad guys" in this matter, then my participation in the topic is at an end. And, until I'm confident there's only one person on the account, I think my interaction with the cthia UserID will also be curtailed.

Have a pleasant evening.

There are various ways to get a thread closed; Cthia once managed it by vociferously arguing that a favorite character was guilty of treason (despite regime change). He has an obsession with the idea of treason, that can result in the gyrations you see above. Frankly I am not sure that there is much separation between him and the Mandarins on the subject of treason, as witness the origin of this thread: that Beowulf's fate is karma for their "treasonous" actions.

Oh come on! There's at least six degrees of separation! LOL

I thought the flock of you vociferously arguing against the obvious is what got that thread closed. Same as what happened in this thread. Except that here I employed a few new psychological tricks to get through to you all. . .

1. Comparing the whole sordid affair to the sanctity of marriage -something you can sink your teeth into - and resulting divorce.
2. Attempting an out of body experience by talking in the third person. LOL

It all seemed to work too, as many of you finally came around, just in time to prevent embarrassment after the cavalry came over the hyper wall. You still seem to be a straggler, even after the cavalry finally came over the hyper wall to my rescue, during this particular engagement. . .

At any rate, do try to remember two things. . .

1. There's always at least six degrees of separation. LOL
2. Arguing the point of a character hardly convicts the messenger.

Spoilers for UH:

One of the Beowulf leaders says point blank they were committing treason. They stopped being traitors upon leaving the League.

That said, I think all the attempted mass murder sort of justifies the whole backstabbing. Its like helping Allies when your a citizen in Nazi Germany.

cthia wrote:Oh come on! There's at least six degrees of separation! LOL

I thought the flock of you vociferously arguing against the obvious is what got that thread closed. Same as what happened in this thread. Except that here I employed a few new psychological tricks to get through to you all. . .

1. Comparing the whole sordid affair to the sanctity of marriage -something you can sink your teeth into - and resulting divorce.
2. Attempting an out of body experience by talking in the third person. LOL

It all seemed to work too, as many of you finally came around, just in time to prevent embarrassment after the cavalry came over the hyper wall. You still seem to be a straggler, even after the cavalry finally came over the hyper wall to my rescue, during this particular engagement. . .

At any rate, do try to remember two things. . .

1. There's always at least six degrees of separation. LOL
2. Arguing the point of a character hardly convicts the messenger.

If you want, I will agree that the Mandarins will consider Beowulf's actions treasonable - because they do not care about the law; to them the law can be molded into whatever suits them best.

Divorce is not treason, no matter how sanctified the marriage may have been; particularly when one partner is abusive. If any fault resides with Beowulf, it is due to their sticking with the Solarian League as long as they did; given what they must have known about the abuses of the Office of Frontier Security in the Verge.

After awhile a body of argument from the point of view of the villains may not result in a conviction of the messenger, but can suggest a certain attitude: I think that in the name of "getting us to think" you prefer to stir things up.

What "cavalry" came over the wall? I expect everyone agrees that the Mandarins and the SLN would consider secession et cetera treason; the argument is whether that belief is legally valid.

Changed Frontier Services to Frontier Security.

If you want, I will agree that the Mandarins will consider Beowulf's actions treasonable -

What other choice do you have, now that it's cast in stone.

because they do not care about the law; to them the law can be molded into whatever suits them best.

Which is the entire point of the title and the thread. Beowulf knew that too!

Divorce is not treason, no matter how sanctified the marriage may have been; particularly when one partner is abusive.

You still aren't quite there yet, not quite ready to graduate.

I fielded this in another post. Divorce is treason if the ugly, hairy Gorilla says it's treason, and if the wife cares about her head. AND when the wife weighs a bulk-o-five and her husband is 800# and, what did you say?. . . Abusive to boot?

Divorce is not legally treason. No. But did you really feel that the Mandarins were concerned with the legality of it? When - in the 101 offenses to the SEM - were they ever mindful of any legalities? Divorce is actually legal. Granted. But the wife who is seeking divorce has the responsibility to protect herself from any imminent reprisals of an idiot who has been abusing the family for centuries. She has a responsibility to protect herself, and her family, from the anger of he who she knows full-well is a brute. A responsibility to protect herself from what she knows, as sure as she is breathing, what that brute is going to do when he finds out she's planning to leave him. And when he finds out that she has already filed for divorce. Heaven forbid! You really don't get that? Or are you trying to do what you accuse me of. Troll and stir up trouble? It can't be made any clearer. I thought soliciting the sanctity of marriage and the idea of divorce would help lay the foundation of the sentiment, to assist with understanding a major part of the human element driving the Mandarins.

Regardless of what the law or the police tells her she can legally do!

Because they can not legally do anything about the brute until he kills or maims her!

Oh, they'll get him after the fact. Maybe. But it ain't gonna raise her from the dead or the 20M Beowulfans who may have fallen prey to a scorned, abusive husband.

If any fault resides with Beowulf, it is due to their sticking with the Solarian League as long as they did; given what they must have known about the abuses of the Office of Frontier Services in the Verge.

Of course I agree with that sentiment. I was the first to throw it into the pot. But the gist of the thread isn't about fault, per se, fine sir. It isn't about legalities and Constitutional rights either. It is about the fact that Beowulf should have known (and they did, which is why they consulted with their new bf and had him hanging out in-system when the Gorilla set sail) what was going to happen to them when the Gorilla took a lot of twos and came up with a lot of fours. That is what this thread is about. If you poke a hornets nest while you're running away. Expect. to. get. stung. Especially if you know they're hornets. Simple as that. Heck, that goes for many a Gorilla too! Who also, get stung!

After awhile a body of argument from the point of view of the villains may not result in a conviction of the messenger, but can suggest a certain attitude: I think that in the name of "getting us to think" you prefer to stir things up.

That is what you choose to think. Cthia (third person out of body experience again, 'cause you still ain't gettin it) simply likes conversation and he ain't afraid of tackling the big issues. He has a mind of his own and he doesn't follow the herd simply 'cause it's in style. I don't have a problem becoming the character, and I could easily see through the eyes of the Mandarins and experience the human element that would surely drive them. Because, I'm human too.

What "cavalry" came over the wall?

Textev came over the wall.

I expect everyone agrees that the Mandarins and the SLN would consider secession et cetera treason; the argument is whether that belief is legally valid.

That is not the scope of this thread, nor the argument. Although I didn't exactly close the door on certain legal issues with the entire sordid affair - strings I knew the Mandarins could pull at.

The thread is about Beowulf knowing full-well what was going to happen and chose to play Russian roulette with the lives of, what turned out to be 20M people?

I made my point quite clear in this thread and textev has now supported me, and yet your intransigence continues. Now who among us seems to be the troublemaker? It never was me, not simply because I can see truths that are hidden.

And. . . that darn cthia also has the nerve and audacity to lay it all out there too. Shame on him!

You have a hardon for me as bad as the Mandarins and the SLN has for the SEM and Beowulf.

The hardon doesn't make it right, but it does make it real.

I've seen your ECM before. And my platforms say they're useless.

.

In Beawulf's defense, they had to consider the reality of Haven's conquest and the resulting wars with Manticore. Their terminus of the Manticore Wormhole Junction made them a tempting target.

Up until Buttercup demonstrated that the SLN had become a third rate Navy, Beawulf legitimately needed the protection of the SLN.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:In Beawulf's defense, they had to consider the reality of Haven's conquest and the resulting wars with Manticore. Their terminus of the Manticore Wormhole Junction made them a tempting target.

Up until Buttercup demonstrated that the SLN had become a third rate Navy, Beawulf legitimately needed the protection of the SLN.

Indeed.

I can imagine Beowulf saying at one point, "We never knew this junction would end up causing us so much grief." The SLN probably also said, "We never knew those junctions whose value we failed to see, was going to cause us so much grief."

If the big hairy Ape had foreseen the strategic implications of Beowulf's junction, long long ago when Beowulf became a founder, they'd own it! Which would have drastically changed the landscape and the details of storyline significantly!

Heck, if they'd known the implications of the MWJ long ago, they might never have found themselves in this particular mess.


Beowulf's junction turned out to be the League's Disk Operating System (DOS), which they failed to correctly realize what they had in their possession, as bad as the mistake made by IBM.


Beowulf was caught between a rock and a hard place. Either they were going to trip over the rock or get smashed by the hard place. They tripped over the rock.