Battle of Trevor's Star

May be I'm wrong?

Perhaps Queen Elizebeth more closely resembles Cleopatra Schwartz?

cthia wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:FOD = ?

My take is that Queen Beth is every bit as tough and smart as King Roger. She sufferred a temporary disability by ascendijg as a teenager and potentially being saddled with a corrupt regent. One conversation with honor in AoV about Prolong prolonging her akward adolescene encourages me to visualize Queen Elizebeth as a young Pam Grier, so she is my favorite Manticoran monarch.

A Pam Grier! Okay then, now I really really want the Companion!

Yeah! That's the ticket!
I was making an observation about the similarities between character rather than my books inspired visualization of Queen Elizebeth's physical appearance.

Actually I was comparing the grit and determination of Queen Elizebeth to the characters portrayed by Pam Grier as well as the physical imagery. I must confess that I regret not watching some of the television series that a more mature Pam Grier had supporting rolls in.

cthia wrote:

dlewis0160 wrote:Shame on you!!! I just lost 1 hour looking up young Pam Grier pictures

I'm pretty sure the comparison isn't rooted in appearance, but in character. Pam Grier is a classic badass of her world of Pimps, thugs and miscreants. In an era of very few female heroines. And even fewer black ones. Beth stands in good stead.

Dauntless wrote:

cthia wrote:
But you wouldn't mind terribly if selling more books was a side-effect? Done!

For the record, I am certain I got it in my head from somewhere that the Companion was simply an encyclopedia of ship specs, missile yields and all-that-there to appease the geeks and dweebs and to keep the cogs and sprockets working properly.

Where did I get that notion from and are those specs indeed contained within it as well? And why does the offering not seem to be shelved along with the other books? Or is it simply that popular?

Essentially, I thought the Honorverse Companion was on the same order as the Star Trek Technical manual. Which I have acquired as well, unopened.

I think the Companion is marketed poorly.

a lot of the book is made up of ships stats, but there is also a lot of interesting background info on the main planets and how things like the RMN and Royal Marines are made up.

also the ships stats each come with a half page info dump on the ship, sometimes the politics of getting it built or the differences in ability compared to earlier classes.

vital to the story? no but still very intresting.

if you aren't sure the novella at the front alone is enough to justify buying then see if a local library has or will get a copy that you can look through before you buy, though the novella is roughly a third of the book.

From what the author, you and many others have said about it, I am certain it is worth the purchase price. As long as it has stories inside, I'm all for it. I wouldn't have bought it for the technical specs alone. I don't mind the cost of any book by my favorite authors because I already know I'll like it. I'd buy Weber's books at twice the price if I had to.

And just perhaps, just maybe, I should consider the collector's appeal of ship specs. Or MilSpecs.

Just to avoid having to snip out text to meet the limitation on embedded quotes I will just post this stand alone.

I Will Build My House of Steel reenforces Weber's recurring theme about the limitations of Constitutional Monarchies. The power of the Mayhew Dynasty was at its lowest ebb at the time of FOR THE HONOR OF THE QUEEN. Honor Harrington's political extortion gambit compelled Protector Benjamin to reassert powers of the Monarch that had atrophied over centuries.

Manticore never experienced a crisis that was as sudden and as existential as Masada's invasion of Yelstin with PRH support. There is no way that either Queen Elizebeth or King Roger could have successfully asserted the dictatorial authority that Protector Benjamin asserted.

Everyone should remember that dictators and monarchs can assert their apparently limitless power only because a significant faction of the population believe that it is in their self interest to support their ruler. In preindustrial societies, the King or Emporerer is supported by a small percentage of the population that are the nobility. The nobles are the professional warriors who are the police forces as well as the military. The social structure ensures that they and their families enjoy the perogative of better and more secure access to food, especially during famine, and better hygene. As a result they are healthier, bigger, stronger and thanks to the lingering effects of episodes of malnutrition, smarter than the commoners who labor to support them. Revolts of the unwashed masses almost always fail.

Once a society becomes industrialized and undergoes the demographic transition, the advantages of being a member of the nobility are less profound. The commoners are also well nourished and healthy so their chances of prevailing in a revolution are better. The weapons technology available to the society is a determing factor in the balance of power.

King Roger and Queen Elizebeth as well as Queen Samantha understand that they live in a technologically advanced society whose wealth and power is enabled by an educated and productive population of commoners. The peerage system that was established to safeguard some advantages for the original colonists after the fatalities from the plague compelled Manticore to import a new wave of colonists is an anachronism that is almost maladaptive. Attempting to assert dictatorial power would reduce economic productivity and ultimately reduce the potential military power of the SKM.

I suspect that the Wintons have some very candid conversations about the numerous historical precedents of royal families that have been exterminated by their own subjects or foreign invaders. The fate of the Czar and his family come to mind not to mention the royal family of France who lost their heads. Historically, a King and his identifiable family are at such extreme risk of being exterminated that they would be Darwinian failures if not for the fact that Royal males are in the habit of impregnating a plethora of noble women as well as commoners in illicit trysts. Wars would probably have been less frequent if successful wars of conquest did not enable the King, his nobles and even commoner soldiers to spread their seed. Given the predominance of contraception in the Honorverse, the Winton males are unlikely to have enough illicit progeny to offset the risks of getting their family exterminated by asserting dicatorial power.

So as much as it would please me to see Beth kill some of the useless idiots and traitors who have imperiled Manticore, I understand the imperitive to restrain that impulse. FOD is perhaps the most explicit book to illustrate this point.

What I would like the Companion to showcase is high resolution maps and a detailed strategic analysis of the specific importance of military objectives like Trevor's Star.

Is there a map which features Trevor's Star in a clear enough light to easily see the fanfare surrounding its importance? Could the SEM have won the war without first acquiring it?

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Just to avoid having to snip out text to meet the limitation on embedded quotes I will just post this stand alone.

I Will Build My House of Steel reenforces Weber's recurring theme about the limitations of Constitutional Monarchies. The power of the Mayhew Dynasty was at its lowest ebb at the time of FOR THE HONOR OF THE QUEEN. Honor Harrington's political extortion gambit compelled Protector Benjamin to reassert powers of the Monarch that had atrophied over centuries.

Manticore never experienced a crisis that was as sudden and as existential as Masada's invasion of Yelstin with PRH support. There is no way that either Queen Elizebeth or King Roger could have successfully asserted the dictatorial authority that Protector Benjamin asserted.

Everyone should remember that dictators and monarchs can assert their apparently limitless power only because a significant faction of the population believe that it is in their self interest to support their ruler. In preindustrial societies, the King or Emporerer is supported by a small percentage of the population that are the nobility. The nobles are the professional warriors who are the police forces as well as the military. The social structure ensures that they and their families enjoy the perogative of better and more secure access to food, especially during famine, and better hygene. As a result they are healthier, bigger, stronger and thanks to the lingering effects of episodes of malnutrition, smarter than the commoners who labor to support them. Revolts of the unwashed masses almost always fail.

Once a society becomes industrialized and undergoes the demographic transition, the advantages of being a member of the nobility are less profound. The commoners are also well nourished and healthy so their chances of prevailing in a revolution are better. The weapons technology available to the society is a determing factor in the balance of power.

King Roger and Queen Elizebeth as well as Queen Samantha understand that they live in a technologically advanced society whose wealth and power is enabled by an educated and productive population of commoners. The peerage system that was established to safeguard some advantages for the original colonists after the fatalities from the plague compelled Manticore to import a new wave of colonists is an anachronism that is almost maladaptive. Attempting to assert dictatorial power would reduce economic productivity and ultimately reduce the potential military power of the SKM.

I suspect that the Wintons have some very candid conversations about the numerous historical precedents of royal families that have been exterminated by their own subjects or foreign invaders. The fate of the Czar and his family come to mind not to mention the royal family of France who lost their heads. Historically, a King and his identifiable family are at such extreme risk of being exterminated that they would be Darwinian failures if not for the fact that Royal males are in the habit of impregnating a plethora of noble women as well as commoners in illicit trysts. Wars would probably have been less frequent if successful wars of conquest did not enable the King, his nobles and even commoner soldiers to spread their seed. Given the predominance of contraception in the Honorverse, the Winton males are unlikely to have enough illicit progeny to offset the risks of getting their family exterminated by asserting dicatorial power.

So as much as it would please me to see Beth kill some of the useless idiots and traitors who have imperiled Manticore, I understand the imperitive to restrain that impulse. FOD is perhaps the most explicit book to illustrate this point.

Oh là là, you've certainly piqued my interest. You so FLY.

there were 2 reasons for trevors star being so prominent.

1) the fact that is has a terminus of the junction, and that automatically makes it priority for the RMN to secure in some fashion. but prior to the loss of TS the peep threat was seen as a long way off and so the idiots in parliament were even more troublesome about building a wall of battle when it would cut into the funds for commerce protection which is what they saw the navy real job, assuming they acknowledged a need for a navy in the first place.

though to be fair before the peeps arrived trevors star had a decent fleet and defences. more then enough for general security if the peeps hadn't decided to turn conquistador

and

2) it was close/in haven space.

honestly if it wasn't for its location in haven space it would have been a system like gregor, i think it is, which was a very minor world, with nothing to draw people to it, even with the junction terminus, until the andies annexed it.


could the war have been won? oh yes. Podnoughts and MDMs made the first war winnable, though there is no question that taking TS helped. manticore might have lost more of the smaller members of the alliance first, but I seriously doubt that in the 2/3 years between the fall of TS to the RMN and buttercup they would have able to take manticore proper. worst case might have lost bassilisk, but again remember when White Haven took Barnett, the podnoughts and MDMs just wiped out anyone that came against them.



why did the RMN take TS? again 2 reasons.

1) it was knife at their back. as long as the peeps had TS then RMN had to keep substantial forces in the home system. it was believed a wormhole assault would be a blood bath but the RMN wasn't taking the chance, so home fleet had to be kept very strong.

2) logistics. convoys of supply ships no long needed to cross hundreds of ly to get supplies to the front. a quick hop through the junction and then a relatively short cruise through hyper at almost zero risk. compared to a possibly months long trip with the risk of raiders, so escorts needed. another drain on ships. ships the the RMN had in much fewer numbers then the peeps.

Dauntless wrote:there were 2 reasons for trevors star being so prominent.

1) the fact that is has a terminus of the junction, and that automatically makes it priority for the RMN to secure in some fashion. but prior to the loss of TS the peep threat was seen as a long way off and so the idiots in parliament were even more troublesome about building a wall of battle when it would cut into the funds for commerce protection which is what they saw the navy real job, assuming they acknowledged a need for a navy in the first place.

though to be fair before the peeps arrived trevors star had a decent fleet and defences. more then enough for general security if the peeps hadn't decided to turn conquistador

and

2) it was close/in haven space.

honestly if it wasn't for its location in haven space it would have been a system like gregor, i think it is, which was a very minor world, with nothing to draw people to it, even with the junction terminus, until the andies annexed it.


could the war have been won? oh yes. Podnoughts and MDMs made the first war winnable, though there is no question that taking TS helped. manticore might have lost more of the smaller members of the alliance first, but I seriously doubt that in the 2/3 years between the fall of TS to the RMN and buttercup they would have able to take manticore proper. worst case might have lost bassilisk, but again remember when White Haven took Barnett, the podnoughts and MDMs just wiped out anyone that came against them.



why did the RMN take TS? again 2 reasons.

1) it was knife at their back. as long as the peeps had TS then RMN had to keep substantial forces in the home system. it was believed a wormhole assault would be a blood bath but the RMN wasn't taking the chance, so home fleet had to be kept very strong.

2) logistics. convoys of supply ships no long needed to cross hundreds of ly to get supplies to the front. a quick hop through the junction and then a relatively short cruise through hyper at almost zero risk. compared to a possibly months long trip with the risk of raiders, so escorts needed. another drain on ships. ships the the RMN had in much fewer numbers then the peeps.

Nice!

Ah, close to Havenite space. There it is! Somehow I missed that. I was under the impression that it was closer to Manty space, but exited deep into Havenite space. You filled in a lot of my holes. I know that w/o Trevor's Star a lengthy trip would have been needed and no support from Home Fleet and its supply chain.

At any rate, all thru White Haven's prolonged engagement of Trevor's Star, I kept thinking that the Star Kingdom could have directed all of that metal towards Noveau Paris, instead. I'm sure it only appeared that way to me, but it seemed like Esther cost White Haven enough firepower to take Noveau Paris alone! LOL

"White Haven, didn't your gf tell you that this is going to cost you, dearly?," says Esther.

cthia wrote:
But you wouldn't mind terribly if selling more books was a side-effect? Done!

For the record, I am certain I got it in my head from somewhere that the Companion was simply an encyclopedia of ship specs, missile yields and all-that-there to appease the geeks and dweebs and to keep the cogs and sprockets working properly.

Where did I get that notion from and are those specs indeed contained within it as well? And why does the offering not seem to be shelved along with the other books? Or is it simply that popular?

Essentially, I thought the Honorverse Companion was on the same order as the Star Trek Technical manual. Which I have acquired as well, unopened.

I think the Companion is marketed poorly.

The tech specs, at least gross ones like ship tonnage, dimension, acceleration, and weapons fit are a big chunk of the book - with a couple paragraphs about each class that might cover design, notable history, etc. (About 25% of the book)

But it also has
Novella "I will Build My House of Steel" (~30% of the book)
Then the rest is
Historical background on Manticore and Grayson
Information about the Manticore binary system, governmental organization, famous naval personnel, non-human species, Army, etc.
Then similar for Grayson
And finally an afterwards essay about the parameters behind developing a believable space navy.

So even if you don't care about the tech nerd specs the novella is well worth reading and some of the history information elsewhere is probably of interest as well.

cthia wrote:
Ah, close to Havenite space. There it is! Somehow I missed that. I was under the impression that it was closer to Manty space, but exited deep into Havenite space. You filled in a lot of my holes. I know that w/o Trevor's Star a lengthy trip would have been needed and no support from Home Fleet and its supply chain.

At any rate, all thru White Haven's prolonged engagement of Trevor's Star, I kept thinking that the Star Kingdom could have directed all of that metal towards Noveau Paris, instead. I'm sure it only appeared that way to me, but it seemed like Esther cost White Haven enough firepower to take Noveau Paris alone! LOL

"White Haven, didn't your gf tell you that this is going to cost you, dearly?," says Esther.

I did a quick look on the Honorverse wiki (so standard warning apply) but Trevor's Star is about 200 light years from Manticore while Nouveau Paris is about 300.

That makes it sound like you could send those forces against Haven instead, but the distance from the closest support base is much different. Manticore had spent the immediate pre-war time, and during the war building, up supply and repair bases between Manticore and the front so most ships didn't have to cycle all the way back to Manticore for repair and resupply.

Lunging another 100 or so LY beyond that support would have been very risky. Also the Haven System home fleet was large enough that the fleet that took Trevor's Star almost certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat it.

Now if Manticore knew that the podnaughts would be along in several more years, that they'd be as effective as they turned out to be, and that Haven would have stayed on the defensive until then - they could have preserved their forces, left Trevor's Star alone, and let 8th fleet's podnaughts go strait to Nouveau Paris and blow everything away with their MDMs.

But that's a hell of a gamble. Better to grab Trevor's Star while you could, vastly shorten and secure the supply line, and be better positioned if they need to continue the conventional attacks.