UC Snippet 15

Bill Woods wrote:

kzt wrote:IIRC, the last time the US Navy lost a vessel in naval combat was 68 years ago.

Pueblo, and Liberty?

kzt wrote:Technically not commissioned ships.

Actually, they were. Not combatants, but "USS" rather than "USNS". In fact, Pueblo still is! An FU to the Norks, I guess.

http://www.nvr.navy.mil/SHIPDETAILS/SHI ... _2235.HTML
http://www.nvr.navy.mil/SHIPDETAILS/SHI ... _4565.HTML

cthia wrote:Commodore Haskell has a responsibility to eventually assist her CO - Gogunov, which sounds like a cheap Vodka or a sick version of Stroganoff - in getting free? At which point he can reassume command of the fleet? There should be assistance headed to Flag Bridge anyway. After all, there could be hidden medical issues. So she can't risk his death by being rebellious.

Since Lepanto is crippled, I presume the survivors on board will be rescued by the Hypatians, while Yountz takes off with what's left of the task force. What happens to Gogunov then....
Internment on Hypatia, or POW camp in Manticore system?
War crimes trial? -- but he didn't actually launch Hajda's attack.

Bill Woods wrote:Since Lepanto is crippled, I presume the survivors on board will be rescued by the Hypatians, while Yountz takes off with what's left of the task force. What happens to Gogunov then....
Internment on Hypatia, or POW camp in Manticore system?
War crimes trial? -- but he didn't actually launch Hajda's attack.

Still, in most (all?) jurisdictions simply pointing a loaded gun at someone is assault and battery. Basically if the threat is real, it's the same as the actual act.

Just because he didn't have the time to launch the missiles does not absolve him of the crimes that launch would have created. Not that it seems SLN cares about war crimes.

Of course, Manticore or even Hypatian could try him for war crimes, but that would be more a political decision.

Bill Woods wrote:War crimes trial? -- but he didn't actually launch Hajda's attack.

IIRC, he did launch against the disabled Manticoran ships and life-pods. Not an EE violation, but certainly a Deneb Accord violation--eg a War Crime.

Weird Harold wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:War crimes trial? -- but he didn't actually launch Hajda's attack.

IIRC, he did launch against the disabled Manticoran ships and life-pods. Not an EE violation, but certainly a Deneb Accord violation--eg a War Crime.

Actually, no, he didn't. That was the late, unlamented Hajdu. He was going to launch at the life pods --- had passed the order to do so, in fact --- but the order had not been acted upon because Admiral Yountz and his staff didn't want to "waste missiles" firing against such "elusive" targets (despite their homing beacons). Haskell wasn't the only officer trying to salvage at least some shreds of decency and humanity from Operation Buccaneer that day.

ZVar wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:Since Lepanto is crippled, I presume the survivors on board will be rescued by the Hypatians, while Yountz takes off with what's left of the task force. What happens to Gogunov then....
Internment on Hypatia, or POW camp in Manticore system?
War crimes trial? -- but he didn't actually launch Hajda's attack.

Still, in most (all?) jurisdictions simply pointing a loaded gun at someone is assault and battery. Basically if the threat is real, it's the same as the actual act.

Just because he didn't have the time to launch the missiles does not absolve him of the crimes that launch would have created. Not that it seems SLN cares about war crimes.

Of course, Manticore or even Hypatian could try him for war crimes, but that would be more a political decision.

In Yamhill County Oregon firing a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs at your neighbor's children isn't a crime if you have your OMMP Medical Marijuana Card and argue "we're old. We don't have time to shoot at children."

runsforcelery wrote:


Actually, no, he didn't. That was the late, unlamented Hajdu. He was going to launch at the life pods --- had passed the order to do so, in fact --- but the order had not been acted upon because Admiral Yountz and his staff didn't want to "waste missiles" firing against such "elusive" targets (despite their homing beacons). Haskell wasn't the only officer trying to salvage at least some shreds of decency and humanity from Operation Buccaneer that day.

All Meghan has to do is keep assassinating the SLN BC that has the senior officer on board until one of the more honorable SLN officers is in command.

She has enough ammo for 6 Triple broadsides?

as i recall a roland carries 240 missiles, 20 per tube is how it was described in one of the books.

216 required to do it 6 times

so not 6 more times is not doable but 4/5 is definitely doable and after seeing something less then 25% their size destroy a BC and do it several times they will likely run, may even push the compensator to let them run faster.

It's an interesting problem. In principle, since the SLN appears to have retained the 'illegal order' [defined as an order to violate your own laws or regulations] provisions Western militaries adopted after WWII, Gogunov and every other survivor of TF1034's chain of command is liable under the regulation implementing the Deneb Accords. In practice, the targeting orders came from Hadju's OpsO's console, so there could be cover for them if there's no human review at intermediate levels - if nobody had any way to know that their commands were about to fire at the wrecks until they launched, they _couldn't_ have aborted the command and have no responsibility for allowing its execution. My impression, however, is that at least down to the ship level new queues are downloaded in both human- and machine-readable format, so that the TacO can verify that his computers are actually doing what they should be. That verification would make them and their superiors liable to prosecution. In which case a possible defense is that they didn't have time to recognise the illegal character of the order and respond to it.

Like I say, an interesting problem. I'm pretty sure that the lawyers would just say that everybody directly involved is dead and leave it at that.

The many Frontier Fleet misbehaviours that have been documented, unfortunately, seem to be covered by the SL's [legal] recognition of the absolute sovereignty of system governments. Both the Eridani Edict and the Deneb Accords are directed at what you are allowed to do to _other_ people. An established government can do whatever the heck it wants to its _own_ people, and invite whomsoever they wish to help them do it, in order to suppress insurrection. Handed a determination of 'apprehended insurrection', to use a current term, and an assurance that the actions requested are legal under local law, no one in the SLN would be able to question the legality of their orders.

Weird Harold wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:War crimes trial? -- but he didn't actually launch Hajda's attack.

IIRC, he did launch against the disabled Manticoran ships and life-pods. Not an EE violation, but certainly a Deneb Accord violation--eg a War Crime.

It seems that quite a few Holes in SLN Intel are continuing to be filled. In one of the snippets a SL officer specifically commented on the new data on Manty tech they'd gotten. One is the ballistic component of Manty missiles to be added to the list. Albeit, they haven't quite gotten a handle on all of the ramifications of FTL. Now for the question. . .

I don't think it is acceptable, but why isn't it prudent for the RMN to kill everything in-system to prevent that knowledge from escaping -- should the cavalry come soon enough? Why wouldn't destruction to protect military secrets be acceptable under the spoils of war? Sort of like. . .

"I can tell you - or show you - about MDMs, but then I'd have to kill you."

IINM, isn't Megan the first to reveal the capability? And she's offering the SLN a chance to flee with intel. I understand she has no choice, but if the cavalry comes, should she divulge that bit of info?

Anyone privy to real world examples?