Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests

BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:42 am

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4441
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

cthia wrote: I have a couple of Armenian friends. Well, she is Armenian and he's American. A lovely couple with lovely female twins, both inheriting that trademark lovely Armenian hair. Anyway, I've heard of the Parthian Empire from them. I wonder if RFC, being a history buff, was influenced by it, thus the name somehow has appropriate meaning?


Since this has gone unanswered, let me quote some history atcha. The Parthian Option, IMO, comes from the phrase Parthian Shot; here is what Wikipedia has to say:
Wikipedia wrote:Parthian shot
The Parthian shot is a light horse military tactic made famous in the West by the Parthians, an ancient Iranian people. While in real or feigned retreat their horse archers would turn their bodies back in full gallop to shoot at the pursuing enemy. The maneuver required superb equestrian skills, since the rider's hands were occupied by his composite bow. As the stirrup had not been invented at the time of the Parthians, the rider relied solely on pressure from his legs to guide his horse.

In addition to the Parthians, this tactic was used by most nomads of the Eurasian steppe, including the Scythians, Huns, Turks, Magyars, and Mongols, as well as armies from elsewhere.

The Parthians used the tactic to great effect in their victory over the Roman general Crassus in the Battle of Carrhae.

Wikipedia wrote:The Battle of Carrhae was fought in 53 BC between the Roman Republic and the Parthian Empire near the town of Carrhae. The Parthian general Surena decisively defeated a numerically superior Roman invasion force under the command of Marcus Licinius Crassus. It is commonly seen as one of the earliest and most important battles between the Roman and Parthian empires and one of the most crushing defeats in Roman history.

Crassus, a member of the First Triumvirate and the wealthiest man in Rome, had been enticed by the prospect of military glory and riches and decided to invade Parthia without the official consent of the Senate. Rejecting an offer from the Armenian King Artavasdes II to allow Crassus to invade Parthia via Armenia, Crassus marched his army directly through the deserts of Mesopotamia. His army clashed with Surena's force near Carrhae, a small town in modern-day Turkey. Despite being heavily outnumbered, Surena's cavalry completely outmaneuvered the Roman heavy infantry, killing or capturing most of the Roman soldiers. Crassus himself was killed when truce negotiations turned violent.

The Romans repeatedly advanced towards the Parthians to attempt to engage in close-quarters fighting, but the horse archers were always able to retreat safely, loosing Parthian shots as they withdrew. The legionaries then formed the testudo formation, in which they locked their shields together to present a nearly impenetrable front to missiles. However, this formation severely restricted their ability in melee combat. The Parthian cataphracts (heavy armored cavalry) exploited this weakness and repeatedly charged the Roman line, causing panic and inflicting heavy casualties. When the Romans tried to loosen up their formation in order to repel the cataphracts, the latter rapidly retreated and the horse archers resumed shooting at the now more exposed legionaries.

Crassus now hoped that his legionaries could hold out until the Parthians ran out of arrows. However, Surena used thousands of camels to resupply his horse archers. Upon realizing this, Crassus dispatched his son Publius with 1,300 Gallic cavalry, 500 archers and eight cohorts of legionaries to drive off the horse archers. The horse archers feigned retreat, drawing off Publius' force who suffered heavy casualties from arrow fire. Once Publius and his men were sufficiently separated from the rest of the army, the Parthian cataphracts confronted them while the horse archers cut off their retreat. In the ensuing combat the Gauls fought bravely, however their inferiority in weapons and armor was evident and they eventually retreated to a hill, where Publius committed suicide while the rest of his men were slaughtered, with only 500 taken alive. Crassus, unaware of his son's fate but realizing Publius was in danger, ordered a general advance. He was confronted with the sight of his son's head on a spear. The Parthian horse archers began to surround the Roman infantry, shooting at them from all directions, while the cataphracts mounted a series of charges that disorganized the Romans. The Parthian onslaught did not cease until nightfall. Crassus, deeply shaken by his son's death, ordered a retreat to the nearby town of Carrhae, leaving behind 4,000 wounded, who were killed by the Parthians the next morning. Four Roman cohorts got lost in the dark and were surrounded on a hill by the Parthians, all save 20 Romans being killed.

The next day, Surena sent a message to the Romans, offering to negotiate with Crassus. Surena proposed a truce, allowing the Roman army to return to Syria safely in exchange for Rome giving up all territory east of the Euphrates. Surena either sent an embassy to the Romans by the hills or went himself stating he wanted a peace conference to evacuate. Crassus was reluctant to meet with the Parthians, but his troops threatened to mutiny if he did not. At the meeting, a Parthian pulled at Crassus' reins, sparking violence. Crassus and his generals were killed. After his death, the Parthians allegedly poured molten gold down his throat, in a symbolic gesture mocking Crassus' renowned greed. The remaining Romans at Carrhae attempted to flee, but most were captured or killed. Roman casualties amounted to about 20,000 killed and 10,000 captured making the battle one of the costliest defeats in Roman history. Parthian casualties were minimal.

Note that a parting shot is similar, but is a one time thing; while the Parthian Shot could be used in an ongoing campaign of harassment.
So a Parthian Shot is a missile attack made by a retreating force.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:58 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote: I have a couple of Armenian friends. Well, she is Armenian and he's American. A lovely couple with lovely female twins, both inheriting that trademark lovely Armenian hair. Anyway, I've heard of the Parthian Empire from them. I wonder if RFC, being a history buff, was influenced by it, thus the name somehow has appropriate meaning?


Since this has gone unanswered, let me quote some history atcha. The Parthian Option, IMO, comes from the phrase Parthian Shot; here is what Wikipedia has to say:
Wikipedia wrote:Parthian shot
The Parthian shot is a light horse military tactic made famous in the West by the Parthians, an ancient Iranian people. While in real or feigned retreat their horse archers would turn their bodies back in full gallop to shoot at the pursuing enemy. The maneuver required superb equestrian skills, since the rider's hands were occupied by his composite bow. As the stirrup had not been invented at the time of the Parthians, the rider relied solely on pressure from his legs to guide his horse.

In addition to the Parthians, this tactic was used by most nomads of the Eurasian steppe, including the Scythians, Huns, Turks, Magyars, and Mongols, as well as armies from elsewhere.

The Parthians used the tactic to great effect in their victory over the Roman general Crassus in the Battle of Carrhae.

Wikipedia wrote:The Battle of Carrhae was fought in 53 BC between the Roman Republic and the Parthian Empire near the town of Carrhae. The Parthian general Surena decisively defeated a numerically superior Roman invasion force under the command of Marcus Licinius Crassus. It is commonly seen as one of the earliest and most important battles between the Roman and Parthian empires and one of the most crushing defeats in Roman history.

Crassus, a member of the First Triumvirate and the wealthiest man in Rome, had been enticed by the prospect of military glory and riches and decided to invade Parthia without the official consent of the Senate. Rejecting an offer from the Armenian King Artavasdes II to allow Crassus to invade Parthia via Armenia, Crassus marched his army directly through the deserts of Mesopotamia. His army clashed with Surena's force near Carrhae, a small town in modern-day Turkey. Despite being heavily outnumbered, Surena's cavalry completely outmaneuvered the Roman heavy infantry, killing or capturing most of the Roman soldiers. Crassus himself was killed when truce negotiations turned violent.

The Romans repeatedly advanced towards the Parthians to attempt to engage in close-quarters fighting, but the horse archers were always able to retreat safely, loosing Parthian shots as they withdrew. The legionaries then formed the testudo formation, in which they locked their shields together to present a nearly impenetrable front to missiles. However, this formation severely restricted their ability in melee combat. The Parthian cataphracts (heavy armored cavalry) exploited this weakness and repeatedly charged the Roman line, causing panic and inflicting heavy casualties. When the Romans tried to loosen up their formation in order to repel the cataphracts, the latter rapidly retreated and the horse archers resumed shooting at the now more exposed legionaries.

Crassus now hoped that his legionaries could hold out until the Parthians ran out of arrows. However, Surena used thousands of camels to resupply his horse archers. Upon realizing this, Crassus dispatched his son Publius with 1,300 Gallic cavalry, 500 archers and eight cohorts of legionaries to drive off the horse archers. The horse archers feigned retreat, drawing off Publius' force who suffered heavy casualties from arrow fire. Once Publius and his men were sufficiently separated from the rest of the army, the Parthian cataphracts confronted them while the horse archers cut off their retreat. In the ensuing combat the Gauls fought bravely, however their inferiority in weapons and armor was evident and they eventually retreated to a hill, where Publius committed suicide while the rest of his men were slaughtered, with only 500 taken alive. Crassus, unaware of his son's fate but realizing Publius was in danger, ordered a general advance. He was confronted with the sight of his son's head on a spear. The Parthian horse archers began to surround the Roman infantry, shooting at them from all directions, while the cataphracts mounted a series of charges that disorganized the Romans. The Parthian onslaught did not cease until nightfall. Crassus, deeply shaken by his son's death, ordered a retreat to the nearby town of Carrhae, leaving behind 4,000 wounded, who were killed by the Parthians the next morning. Four Roman cohorts got lost in the dark and were surrounded on a hill by the Parthians, all save 20 Romans being killed.

The next day, Surena sent a message to the Romans, offering to negotiate with Crassus. Surena proposed a truce, allowing the Roman army to return to Syria safely in exchange for Rome giving up all territory east of the Euphrates. Surena either sent an embassy to the Romans by the hills or went himself stating he wanted a peace conference to evacuate. Crassus was reluctant to meet with the Parthians, but his troops threatened to mutiny if he did not. At the meeting, a Parthian pulled at Crassus' reins, sparking violence. Crassus and his generals were killed. After his death, the Parthians allegedly poured molten gold down his throat, in a symbolic gesture mocking Crassus' renowned greed. The remaining Romans at Carrhae attempted to flee, but most were captured or killed. Roman casualties amounted to about 20,000 killed and 10,000 captured making the battle one of the costliest defeats in Roman history. Parthian casualties were minimal.

Note that a parting shot is similar, but is a one time thing; while the Parthian Shot could be used in an ongoing campaign of harassment.
So a Parthian Shot is a missile attack made by a retreating force.


Thanks for that.

Not surprised that I wasn't aware of it, since it was hidden under the correct stealthy subject of bleh history.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:53 am

Robert_A_Woodward
Captain of the List

Posts: 578
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:29 pm

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
(RAW: lets delete the spoilers, because I am changing the subject)


Keep in mind that the SL was historically a very loose association more analogouse to the League of Nations and The United Nations than to the United States prior to the American Civil War. There was no provision in the US Constitution that either enabled or prohibited secession. The historic context of the Declaration of Independance encouraged the southern slave states to believe that secession was legal. There were a lot of legal scholars, including people in the Northern states who did not own slaves, who agreed with them.

The issue of slavery provided the moral pretext to wage war on the secceeding states. However; it could bebargued that the real issue was that duties on the exports of cotton and tobacco from Southern slave states provided the duties on exports that funded the Federal Government. The foreign exchange generated by exports of cotton and tobacco also funded infrastructure construction in the Northern States that enabled industrialization.


Ahem. THERE WERE NO LEVIES ON USA EXPORTS! This was an explicit prohibition in the Constitution. The USA Federal government was funded by import duties. And while we are at it, there wasn't much Federal spending on infrastructure (other than coastal forts and federal armories, which the South had at least its fair share) after funding expired on the National Road around 1840. For that matter, according to numbers I remember seeing, the port of New York collected more tariffs in the 1850s than all Southern ports combined (I am including Baltimore in that list). Boston was number 2. So, I doubt that the South was paying its fair share of government expenses. Also, from what I can tell, government expenditures for infrastructure in the North was mostly done by the states (for example for the canal system after all the companies went bankrupt in the late 1830s).
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:37 am

quite possibly a cat
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:51 am

Hasn't Beowulf been supporting an active terrorist group that kills Solarian citizens? I'm pretty sure they've been actively supporting terrorists. So I think the answer is: Yes, its treason.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by George J. Smith   » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:57 am

George J. Smith
Commodore

Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:48 am
Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

quite possibly a cat wrote:Hasn't Beowulf been supporting an active terrorist group that kills Solarian citizens? I'm pretty sure they've been actively supporting terrorists. So I think the answer is: Yes, its treason.


If you are refering to the "ballroom" they mostly go after Mesans and Mesa is not part of the SL.

The SL citizens that are targeted by the "ballroom" are usually slave runners, and are thus classified as pirates, so I would assume there is not treason involved in such situations.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by saber964   » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:35 am

saber964
Admiral

Posts: 2423
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: Spokane WA USA

George J. Smith wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:Hasn't Beowulf been supporting an active terrorist group that kills Solarian citizens? I'm pretty sure they've been actively supporting terrorists. So I think the answer is: Yes, its treason.


If you are refering to the "ballroom" they mostly go after Mesans and Mesa is not part of the SL.

The SL citizens that are targeted by the "ballroom" are usually slave runners, and are thus classified as pirates, so I would assume there is not treason involved in such situations.



Not quite, the Audubon Ballroom does occasionally hit Solarian citizens like particularly nasty sector or planetary governors and Gendarmie Officers who protect the slave trade. Remember when Henke and Armstrong(?) were discussing how to interrogate Hongbo by threatening to have him have a chat with some "members" of the Ballroom or asking if ENS Zilwicki would be able to find some real ones.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Rajani Isa   » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:42 pm

Rajani Isa
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:17 pm

cthia wrote:Beowulf is providing weapons to be used by* someone initiating combat against the SL. But you've got "initiating" in italics. So I'm assuming that you mean it in the sense as "someone who originally started the conflict?"


"Raging Justice" was the SL initiating conflict against the SEM. They INVADED the Manticore system. Just like they invaded Spindle. Just like they shot - without provocation or warning the ships at New Tusconay (IIRC).

The last was considered piracy, and the SEM retaliated as such. Them going to NT for Byng is, alongside Lacoön II, are the only things that the SEM initiated against the SL, and only as a reaction to their aggression. Every other confrontation - every other actual battle - was initiated by the SL and the Mandarins.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:46 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Rajani Isa wrote:
cthia wrote:Beowulf is providing weapons to be used by* someone initiating combat against the SL. But you've got "initiating" in italics. So I'm assuming that you mean it in the sense as "someone who originally started the conflict?"


"Raging Justice" was the SL initiating conflict against the SEM. They INVADED the Manticore system. Just like they invaded Spindle. Just like they shot - without provocation or warning the ships at New Tusconay (IIRC).

The last was considered piracy, and the SEM retaliated as such. Them going to NT for Byng is, alongside Lacoön II, are the only things that the SEM initiated against the SL, and only as a reaction to their aggression. Every other confrontation - every other actual battle - was initiated by the SL and the Mandarins.


Spot on Rajani. I thought that's how it should be digested.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:59 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Again, the only entity that needs to charge the head of the nail with treason is the entity with the big hammer. It really doesn't matter what we think or the objects of Buccaneer think.

PLUS! Trying to secede in the middle of a war might be the season and the reason for treason. What's the difference in a soldier cutting out and running when war breaks out? It's called desertion in the face of the enemy. It wasn't okay when Pavel Young flipped his tail, flashed his running lights and mooned the navy - during war. It shouldn't be okay for Beowulf or Hypatia to try and ease out the door when the gorilla is busy.

THUS SAYETH THE GORILLA! I'm just the messenger.

Whether that is the way it really went down or no, has nothing atall to do with how the angry, hairy, scorned gorilla would perceive it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Exidor   » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:20 pm

Exidor
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:32 pm

cthia wrote:How did Beowulf find out about Raging Justice?Surely it wasn't in the news outlets of Old Earth.


Actually, it was. A Rising Thunder, Chapter 14.

Innokentiy Kolokoltsov considered the message on his display.
Well, it’s hardly a surprise, he thought. And I thought I was ready for it. But I don’t suppose anyone could really be ready for something like this. And the Manties are capitalizing on it, damn them.
He didn’t know how the newsies had first gotten wind of “Operation Raging Justice,” but any secret had a limited shelf life. Sooner or later, somebody always “outed” it, either for some advantage they might gain or simply for the ego stroking newsies gave those “unnamed sources.”


Well before the events under discussion in Chapter 23.

If this has already been noted... I'm simply late to the discussion. :)
Top

Return to Honorverse