TFLYTSNBN wrote:I am definately being sarcastic.
I modify my argument by conceding that the more independant minded and paranoid star nations have no doubt declined to become members of the Solarian League in order to enjoy the deterrent umbrella of the invincible Solarian League Navy. There must be some down side to full membership that I do not recall Weber writing about. Perhaps the SL core systems have decreed that no new systems will be admitted as full members and will at best become Protectorates? This would certainly discourage recruitment. In the case of Manticore, the price would also include loss of control of the MWJ.Vince wrote:Reading this, I can't tell if you are being serious, or sarcastic.
TFLYTSNBN wrote:You are absolutely correct Sir. I am an imbecile.
The possibillity of a few SLN member systems deciding after closely observing the Havenite wars that they should be forting up is absurd. It would be as ludicrous as the State of New York and NYC becoming alarmed by the escalation of teerorist attacks around the world that might have included using hijacked airliners as super heavyweight, near nuclear yield, guided missiles. It would be absurd for the State of New York and NYC to not be sanguine after having the US airforce reassure them that such an attack will not happen because the USAF would bomb the feces out of any country that launched such an attack. It would be absurd for the Governor of New York to order the NY National Guard to keep a couple of fully fueled and armed F-16s on alert just in case someone hijacks a couple of airliners. It would be equally absurd that NYC might decide to deploy some SAM missile batteries around the city and have a few MANPADDs available.Vince wrote:Nothing similar happened in the Honorverse to the members of the Solarian League until the events in Spindle, and the Manticore Binary System. At that point, the scales started to fall off the eyes of those willing to see.
It should be noted that no one in the state of New York or NYC put into place any of the countermeasures suggested above prior to the events of September 11, 2001.
TFLYTSNBN, I was under the impression the discussion was about member systems of the SL. Thus the shape and form of my responses. If you want an example of a star nation outside the SL looking after its own defense, I direct you to Erewhon (pre-Alliance) or Mannerheim. We've seen other independent star systems with substantial navies (for single-star polities). Of course, Erewhon's position is rather special, since it most definitely was right on the edge of the Havenite Wars from the get-go. The vast majority of the human occupied galaxy wasn't.
Independent and paranoid star system may or may not wish to join the League. The bar for League membership is pretty specific in terms of acceptable forms of local government and acceptance of federal regulation, but the demands aren't especially onerous. However, not everyone wants to belong to a behemoth in which they will feel submerged. For that matter, a lot of the independent star systems beyond the SL's borders were colonized by people who wantas little as possible to do with the SL because of their own or their parents' experiences with the League, OFS, Solly transtellars, or some combination of the above. Moreover, the League bureaucracy (as opposed to the Assembly) has adopted a policy of "probationary membership." This policy is not universally enforced (one reason it's especially hated by the independents), but it amounts to spending an open-ended period as essentially one of the Protectorates (though they don't call you that, of course) until the various inspectors and ombudsmen are satisfied that your system is now suited to full membership. Quite a few systems have found themselves trapped in that sort of status for a loooong time, because as long as they are, OFS administrators can charge them "service fees" that really help out the SL cash flow. (I have pointed out that the SL is not normally greeted with open arms when it reaches an independent systm's vicinity, haven't I? Trust me, a bunch of them would just love to emulate Talbott and seek annexation by the SEM, instead.)
At any rate, there's no telling what some of the independents may have been up to. The main caveat is that the majority of them can't afford to be both cutting edges and maintain a large number of ships, so they tend to opt either for quality in a smallish fleet that is fast on its feet and adaptive or else for a small clutch of wallers which are usually obsolescent but suitable tor dealing with any threats likely --- let me stress that, likely --- to come their way.
The reason I stress that qualifier is that unless they are particularly close to Haven and the Haven Secvtor (which most of the settled galaxy is not, if you look at the map) the threats likely to come their way are not going to include cutting edge GA tech for a long time to come. That means most of them went right on being perfectly happy with what they had at least until the end of events in UC.
I'm sorry if this model doesn't fit your thinking, but it's the one I've been consistently writing about for 25 years now. And it does not foreclose at least a limited number of Mannerheims. For that matter, it doesn't mean you won't be seeing a lot more navies thinking Mannerheim-like thoughts following the changes in status and deployment of Frontier and Battle Fleets post-UC. You just won't see many of them right now, so the chance of any of them being available as major weapons suppliers or developers at this moment ranges from slim to none.