Diversity within the Solarian League

Brigade XO wrote:Based on what we have seen over the long arch of the books, there are at least two compelling reasons why Beowulf has such a large SDF. These do not count Beowulf's own commerce protection for it's merchant marine and thoses ships from other systems (SLN or not) comming into the trade routes it patrols and secures. Nor does it count the Beowulf Biological Survey in it's operations and use as a Special Forces/Commando extension of Beowulf's various foreign policy and self protection.

The 1st and 2nd both directly driven by Haven and the Sigma Draconis Terminus of the Manticore Junction.

Not only has Manticore "been in the way of" PRH's expansion and forcible aquistion of systems to feed Haven's ongoing and increasing economic crisis brought on by the whole Dole system, the Junction (and so Beowulf's connection to it) is an almost incalculable prize for Haven.

There are two primary ways this hits Beowulf beyond the probable changes that Haven would make to Beowulf's direct share of transit fees. One would be that Haven, should it take Manticore as one of it's conquests, would not only control the Junction, but all the trade represented by the Junction to and from the SL. The political and economic impact of that on Beowulf would be significant in of itself.

What became way beyond possible since the events with Honnor Harrington at Basilisk was that Haven would move against the Sigma Draconis Terminus to take and hold that end of the wormhole and control the primary SL/Haven Quadrant wormhole route. Should Haven move aginst that end of the terminus and Beowulf NOT be able to hold it, they may or may not be able to interest the SL (and the SLN) in comming in to recover the terminus without a lot of extra costs. Based on the behavior of the Mandarins and OFS, even when the SLN would dispatch forces to kick a PRH fleet off the terminus, there would be the SLN in control with OFS wanting to secure and maintain the controls- in the name of Beowulf of course- for the safety and economic interest of the SL.
If Beowulf has to call for SLN to retrieve this signicant asset, the cost is going to be the control of the terminus and corresponding loss of power, prestige and their own control/security. OFS is unlikely to be able to throw a net over Beowulf but they will hold onto the terminus since Beowulf obviously can't be capable of holding it.

The other is that not only does Beowulf have major military and economic treaties with Manticore, it also has a very close relationship on a very human level with centuries of intermarriage between system's populations. Manticore is not a daughter colony of Beowulf but from many perspectives (personal relationships, governmental relationships, political (High Ridge aside) philosophy, business relationships, anti-slavery, and common core values in medial, business, and moral ethics.

We haven't seen any direct mention of military treaties requireing Beowulf to come to the aid of Manticore (which would of nessissity have to come through the Junction) but it is quite possible that a provision is that Beowulf maintain a force sufficent to defend and secure the Sigma Draconis Terminus which would leave Manticore free to not station a fleet at that end of the wormhole. While Beowulf might not keep a massive presence where it could be seen right at the terminus, it would keep what ever number and force of ships closely available to defend or possibly retake it given the decades long growing problem with Haven.

Beowulf is under no illusions of the cost of needing to call on the SLN to recover the terminus would be. It is unlikely that Haven would strike directly at the Beowulf SYSTEM - given that would be a tripwire for the SLN to come in for the defense and recovery of a Core Member- but the loss of the terminus, particularly if it came by the Manticore System's fall to haven and the Junction then being the spoils of war- but Beowulf would have to be able to hang onto it's end of the terminus even if the other side of the partnership corporation running it become Haven.

So, yeah, Beowulf needs a major "SDF" because it has to secure and maintain control of the primary trade link with the Haven Quadrant.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Some --- some --- of the more paranoid member systems may have felt a need to stock up on missile pods and weapons platforms. Most of them? No way.




My thoughts exactly. Most SL members forting up, no way.
A few "paranoid" SL systems forting up, yes.

Keep in mind that the paradigm for warfare in your Honorverse is different than for current Earth. Interdiction is impossible because ships in hyperspace seldom encounter each other except near star systems. Strategic depth is not irrellevant, but attacking from hundreds of LYs or even 1,000s is very pkausible. This is how the PRHN was able to attack Honor Harrington's forces in War of Honor. Neither the RMN or the AEN detected them until they were dropping out of hyper.

There is nothing except deterrence to prevent some force from sneaking into the SL core to ream some SL system.

Deterrence?
Detterence only works if you can identify the attacker. The SLN casully dismisses your SDFs and merchant ships observations of SD(P)s that can launch thousands of MDMs to wage battles from ranges of light minutes or that LACs can ream SDs a new orifice. After observing that the invincible SLN is sufferring from a cranial rectal insertion, you just might hedge your bets. Soet of like buying a gun when you live in a City like Chicago where homicides are almost never snolved.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Reply to RunsForCelery.

The SL will have few member systems with SDs or DNs.

However; it is very possible that many SL member systems have missile pods or forts deployed to guard critical infrastructure. Their motto is:

WHEN SECONDS COUNT, THE INVINCIBLE SOLARIAN LEAGUE NAVY IS MANY LIGHTYEARS AWAY.

These SL member systems that choose to deploy missile pods or forts will either be Technodyne customers or have some indigeneous production capacity.

Not being argumentative but your writings to date depict a Solarian League in which the ISLN does not deploy significant forces to defend individual member systems. Battle Fleet sits fat and happy in a few, fleet bases. Frontier Fleet isto busy subjurgating Shell Protectorates for exploitation to defend units to defend SL member systems.

The military posture of most SL core systems resmbles Silesia more than the SEM, Andermani AEmpire or Haven. Unless they have a significant SDF, they are totally reliant on BF for deterrence. Until the Haven wars, this was suffecient. One would think that a few would figure it out.

runsforcelery wrote:Why did it become insufficient because of the Havenite Wars? The League was still the League, and aside from the MWJ, the Haven Quadrant was still hundreds of light-years from the core, and deterrence depended not on the battle squadron parked in your system but in the scores of battle squadrons which come and kick the living daylights out of anyone who threatened an SL member system with significant force. You need
locale SAR and anti-pirate patrols (maybe), and for most anything else, you don't need a navy at all under the paradigm which has governed the explored galaxy literally for centuries. For almost any SL member system, a battle squadron would be a hole in space you poured money into and which served absolutely no useful purpose. And the Havenite Wars didn't change that in any way because they posed exactly zero threat to any SL territory, star system, or citizen.

The State of California doesn't feel any need to keep a CVN and a few Arleigh Burke's homeported in San Diego under the state flag because China might suddenly attack the harbor. Same thing for member systems of the SLN pre the . . . unfortunate events beginning with Byng's terminal stupidity.

Some --- some --- of the more paranoid member systems may have felt a need to stock up on missile pods and weapons platforms. Most of them? No way. If there were any significant long term potential threat to a member system, there would be a battle squadron parked in it. And that battle squadron would be the tripwire for unleashing the entire SLN on the threat if it stopped being "potential."

And before the Manties and the Havenites completely altered the way wars were fought, that was all the member systems ever needed. I don't believe a single thing I've ever told you about the Solarian League should suggest any other state of affairs.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:You are absolutely correct Sir. I am an imbecile.

The possibillity of a few SLN member systems deciding after closely observing the Havenite wars that they should be forting up is absurd. It would be as ludicrous as the State of New York and NYC becoming alarmed by the escalation of teerorist attacks around the world that might have included using hijacked airliners as super heavyweight, near nuclear yield, guided missiles. It would be absurd for the State of New York and NYC to not be sanguine after having the US airforce reassure them that such an attack will not happen because the USAF would bomb the feces out of any country that launched such an attack. It would be absurd for the Governor of New York to order the NY National Guard to keep a couple of fully fueled and armed F-16s on alert just in case someone hijacks a couple of airliners. It would be equally absurd that NYC might decide to deploy some SAM missile batteries around the city and have a few MANPADDs available.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:You are absolutely correct Sir. I am an imbecile.

The possibillity of a few SLN member systems deciding after closely observing the Havenite wars that they should be forting up is absurd. It would be as ludicrous as the State of New York and NYC becoming alarmed by the escalation of teerorist attacks around the world that might have included using hijacked airliners as super heavyweight, near nuclear yield, guided missiles. It would be absurd for the State of New York and NYC to not be sanguine after having the US airforce reassure them that such an attack will not happen because the USAF would bomb the feces out of any country that launched such an attack. It would be absurd for the Governor of New York to order the NY National Guard to keep a couple of fully fueled and armed F-16s on alert just in case someone hijacks a couple of airliners. It would be equally absurd that NYC might decide to deploy some SAM missile batteries around the city and have a few MANPADDs available.

Vince wrote:< snip >

It should be noted that no one in the state of New York or NYC put into place any of the countermeasures suggested above prior to the events of September 11, 2001.

Vince wrote:Reading this, I can't tell if you are being serious, or sarcastic.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:You are absolutely correct Sir. I am an imbecile.

The possibillity of a few SLN member systems deciding after closely observing the Havenite wars that they should be forting up is absurd. It would be as ludicrous as the State of New York and NYC becoming alarmed by the escalation of teerorist attacks around the world that might have included using hijacked airliners as super heavyweight, near nuclear yield, guided missiles. It would be absurd for the State of New York and NYC to not be sanguine after having the US airforce reassure them that such an attack will not happen because the USAF would bomb the feces out of any country that launched such an attack. It would be absurd for the Governor of New York to order the NY National Guard to keep a couple of fully fueled and armed F-16s on alert just in case someone hijacks a couple of airliners. It would be equally absurd that NYC might decide to deploy some SAM missile batteries around the city and have a few MANPADDs available.

Nothing similar happened in the Honorverse to the members of the Solarian League until the events in Spindle, and the Manticore Binary System. At that point, the scales started to fall off the eyes of those willing to see.

It should be noted that no one in the state of New York or NYC put into place any of the countermeasures suggested above prior to the events of September 11, 2001.