Really?????? Mk2

runsforcelery wrote:

Annachie wrote:There's a Batman quote about why he just doesn't shoot criminals.
Something likr
"Can't have an easy way out, or I might be tempted to use it"

Using the snarcs as demolition charges would be too tempting for Merlin. Especially as he wants innovation by the church.

After he's done it once, it becomes much easier to use it again and again, and all of a sudden HIS mission is lost.

At least, that's how I viewed it.

Thanks for trying, but, no. Given Sarmouth‘s fears about the rockets going in, the criticism that he should’ve had the demolition action up and ready to go from the get-go is entirely valid. As I say, I was very, very ill while I was working on this part of the book, and I strongly suspect that that’s why I didn’t recognize the plot problem myself on the way through. On the other hand, sick or not, it’s my job to notice things like that, so I can’t just write myself a pass on it.

I have to say that I think overall the same reads well and works… Only problem is that it doesn’t make sense in some ways.

Far be it from me, just a lowly reader, to disagree with the author. I still think you are wrong, even given your explanation. The reason I do is if the Circle blew up the rockets still in the tubes I see only 3 real options from there. All three would produce worse plot holes.

1. Ships survive and merrily go on about their business. Rocket tech by the Church is still actively developed. This leads to a huge plot hole of simply waving a magic wand to make the plot happen.

2. Ships survive and merrily go on about their business. Rocket tech is halted as unreliable in the field. Based in human behavior in the past, I see this as the most likely as rockets were already hard on logistics. This would also be something the Circle would not want to happen. Merlin has allowed worse to happen to keep tech moving forward.

3. The rockets getting blown up is attributed to demonic power by Charis. Something Merlin is always actively trying to avoid.

Maybe I just don't have the imagination to see a scenario where a bigger plot hole is the only answer though.

ZVar wrote:
2. Ships survive and merrily go on about their business. Rocket tech is halted as unreliable in the field. Based in human behavior in the past, I see this as the most likely as rockets were already hard on logistics. This would also be something the Circle would not want to happen. Merlin has allowed worse to happen to keep tech moving forward.

Considering how unreliable were the real XIX century rockets, it would probably required Merlin intervention for Church rockets to NOT explode in tubes altogether...

P.S. Actually, it may be a good secret plot - if Merlin (or Nimue) secretly made sure that Church tech REALLY worked.

Annachie wrote:Dil, do you know of any footage of these rockets being fired?

I remember Mythbusters talking about the Hale, for example, but I don't remember that they fired one off.

As I recall, a replica Hale was one of the test rockets the Mythbusters made and fired when they looked at the legendary two-stage Confederate rocket, and it worked better than predicted by their rocket experts' computer. I'll see if I can find that episode when I get home.

Julia Minor wrote:

Annachie wrote:Dil, do you know of any footage of these rockets being fired?

I remember Mythbusters talking about the Hale, for example, but I don't remember that they fired one off.

As I recall, a replica Hale was one of the test rockets the Mythbusters made and fired when they looked at the legendary two-stage Confederate rocket, and it worked better than predicted by their rocket experts' computer. I'll see if I can find that episode when I get home.

I can't remember if they fired an actual one, or used anything like period fuel in one.
The youtube vids seem to be their funny fuel ones, or something that's more modern in design.

runsforcelery wrote: Thanks for trying, but, no. Given Sarmouth‘s fears about the rockets going in, the criticism that he should’ve had the demolition action up and ready to go from the get-go is entirely valid. As I say, I was very, very ill while I was working on this part of the book, and I strongly suspect that that’s why I didn’t recognize the plot problem myself on the way through. On the other hand, sick or not, it’s my job to notice things like that, so I can’t just write myself a pass on it.

I have to say that I think overall the same reads well and works… Only problem is that it doesn’t make sense in some ways.

I dunno. There's been plenty of opportunity to use the SNARCs for sabotage on Church forces, but the Inner Circle has held back every time. So much so that it pretty much HAS to be Inner Circle policy or else they would have used it long before Eraystor got pasted.

For that matter, if you're going to have the SNARC's demo function be used, why then go to the trouble of making 20th/21st century smart bombs and using one on the boat that had been carrying Thirsk's family? A SNARC in the ship's magazine could have done the same job.

evilauthor wrote:

runsforcelery wrote: Thanks for trying, but, no. Given Sarmouth‘s fears about the rockets going in, the criticism that he should’ve had the demolition action up and ready to go from the get-go is entirely valid. As I say, I was very, very ill while I was working on this part of the book, and I strongly suspect that that’s why I didn’t recognize the plot problem myself on the way through. On the other hand, sick or not, it’s my job to notice things like that, so I can’t just write myself a pass on it.

I have to say that I think overall the same reads well and works… Only problem is that it doesn’t make sense in some ways.

I dunno. There's been plenty of opportunity to use the SNARCs for sabotage on Church forces, but the Inner Circle has held back every time. So much so that it pretty much HAS to be Inner Circle policy or else they would have used it long before Eraystor got pasted.

For that matter, if you're going to have the SNARC's demo function be used, why then go to the trouble of making 20th/21st century smart bombs and using one on the boat that had been carrying Thirsk's family? A SNARC in the ship's magazine could have done the same job.

My take on it is that Merlin wanted to be sure that the ship was obliterated with no survivors to tell the truth. He couldn't count on black powder to do this and the bomb he dropped on the ship probably made the black powder in the hold to sympathetically detonate.

Black powder generally deflagrates, it doesn't detonate. To get black powder to detonate you really need to help it along quite a bit. A deflagration usually tend to "push things a part" but a detonation rips things apart due to the speed difference of the shockwaves produced. It's also why you don't use explosives that detonates in firearms since it tends to do Bad Things™ to the weapon.

Annachie wrote:

Julia Minor wrote:
As I recall, a replica Hale was one of the test rockets the Mythbusters made and fired when they looked at the legendary two-stage Confederate rocket, and it worked better than predicted by their rocket experts' computer. I'll see if I can find that episode when I get home.

I can't remember if they fired an actual one, or used anything like period fuel in one.
The youtube vids seem to be their funny fuel ones, or something that's more modern in design.

OK, found the video.

They did not use black powder to fuel either of the proof-of-concept rockets (the Hale and the Boxer rescue rocket). Not only were there safety concerns, neither Jamie nor Adam were licensed to do that sort of work with black powder. They had to use modern rocket motors that duplicated the same thrust and burn time as the black powder would have provided.

That said, the Hale replica had a successful launch. They didn't specify how far it flew, but if the narrator's comment that it flew half as far as the lighter Boxer rocket is in the ballpark that would be around 650 yards. I have no idea how digging over 5 feet into the Mojave lake bed would compare to damage to armor plate, though.

The Hale replica weighed in at 20 pounds before fueling, and obviously didn't have a warhead. I'm not spotting a size for the coastal-defense rockets.

Julia Minor wrote:
OK, found the video.

They did not use black powder to fuel either of the proof-of-concept rockets (the Hale and the Boxer rescue rocket). Not only were there safety concerns, neither Jamie nor Adam were licensed to do that sort of work with black powder. They had to use modern rocket motors that duplicated the same thrust and burn time as the black powder would have provided.

That said, the Hale replica had a successful launch. They didn't specify how far it flew, but if the narrator's comment that it flew half as far as the lighter Boxer rocket is in the ballpark that would be around 650 yards. I have no idea how digging over 5 feet into the Mojave lake bed would compare to damage to armor plate, though.

The Hale replica weighed in at 20 pounds before fueling, and obviously didn't have a warhead. I'm not spotting a size for the coastal-defense rockets.

Given that 9mm fired straight up fell back at a non leathal terminal velocity while sideways and penetrated into the lake bed several inches I would say it says exactly nothing about the ability to even defeat a standard deck of 2" wood over 1/4" hull plating. https://youtu.be/Vyc1Fu2yTpI?t=1294

To summarize:

* There is no evidence that blackpowder rockets of described type could be build large enough to carry significant AP warhead.

* It's highly dubious that primitive blackpowder motors could even be enlarged over relatively small size. Black powder isn't the best thing to compress, and large rocket with a loosely fitted charge would be absolutely unpredictable in flight.

* The probability that rocket-launched warhead would hit the ship at optimal angle is negligible. The trajectory of rocket would need to be rather flat, to achieve at least some probability of even hitting the target.

In short - unworkable.

Dilandu wrote:To summarize:

* There is no evidence that blackpowder rockets of described type could be build large enough to carry significant AP warhead.

* It's highly dubious that primitive blackpowder motors could even be enlarged over relatively small size. Black powder isn't the best thing to compress, and large rocket with a loosely fitted charge would be absolutely unpredictable in flight.

* The probability that rocket-launched warhead would hit the ship at optimal angle is negligible. The trajectory of rocket would need to be rather flat, to achieve at least some probability of even hitting the target.

In short - unworkable.

From Wikipedia

Bombardment of Algiers 27 August 1816
Algiers had been the centre for pirates for some years, and her fleet had reached considerable proportions. Things reached a head after a particular atrocity; Britain decided to stamp out their activities, and the Netherlands agreed to assist. The combined fleet was composed of six British ships of the line and four frigates, plus five Dutch frigates; there were also 37 gun boats, 10 mortar boats, and eight rocket boats. Lieutenant JT Fuller and 19 other ranks from the Rocket Troop accompanied the expedition, together with 2,500 rockets, and were engaged alongside the Royal Marine Artillery.

The rocket boats, gun boats, and mortar boats engaged the enemy’s fleet moored inside the harbour. “It was by their fire that all the ships in the port, with the exception of the outer frigate, were in flames which extended rapidly over the whole arsenal, storehouses and gun boats, exhibiting a spectacle of awful grandeur”.
The following day the Dey capitulated and accepted all the surrender terms.

So, basically, the rockets (and everything else) didn't blow the ships up. They set them on fire. That fits with HMS Eraystor, which was seen largely intact, but with flames everywhere. It also fits with other incidents in history; rockets can't sink a ship by themselves, but they can set them on fire. Once the fire reaches the ammunition, the ship is doomed.

The rockets that the Church had would have been more advanced than the 1816. I know that rockets had quite a career in the British Army; they were withdrawn when artillery became more effective. They also had quite a career shooting at the British Army; weak, ineffective black powder can still be devastating when it hits the ammunition store. We lost at least one battle when that happened...