Uncompromising Honor Snippet #12 (corrected from 13)

Ajax was an Agamemnon-class podlayer. HMS Phantom was a Nike-class.

It isn't clear whether the "not enough escape pods" deficiency was an unique tradeoff of the Agamemnon BC(P) design or whether it applies to all ships with a core hull or even just podlayers with their squashed-up-front internals.

Perhaps the BC(P)'s designers didn't think three(?) boat bays could be trashed without the rest of the ship being destroyed. Ajax's crew was just unlucky.

Vince wrote:

cthia wrote:I think I must be reading this wrongly . . .

passage in UC wrote:He shook his head. The Combat Information Center was as deeply buried as Flag Bridge. In fact, it was one deck farther down. It was also the only other compartment Ilkova could hope to reach that was fitted with the armored shafts through which a life pod could be launched. But getting there through this — the passage was clearly open to vacuum, judging by the thin haze of smoke racing along the overhead towards the hungry rents in Phantom’s hull, and God only knew what other damage there might be — would have been hard enough for someone who wasn’t encumbered and didn’t have a broken arm. Trying to drag him that far with only one working arm . . . .

I was under the impression that CIC and Flag Bridge were too deep in the bowels of the ship to launch pods from that location. CIC, I thought, is pretty much a tomb and not many get out. I was under the impression that pods are launched from near the skin of the ship. Either I'm wrong about all of that or I'm digesting the passage incorrectly. Which?

runsforcelery wrote:You are wrong,

The core hulls of most warships incorporate vertical, heavily armored shafts reaching from the central axis of the ship (as well as to launch points closer to the skin in larger ships) to the ventral and dorsal surfaces of the hull (i.e., those sections protected from battle damage by the wedge) capped by scabs of armor and equipped to launch at least one life pod each. (Some serve multiple pod "bays" near critical systems very deep inside the ship.) There are enough of them (in theory) to allow at least 90% of a ship's company to evacuate. In practice, the percentages from a ship destroyed in action are much lower than that.

Small combatants may dispense with life pod tubes and rely on evacuation through the boat bay simply because it's structurally simpler and offers an escape mode which is effectively as fast (in those smaller combatants) as pods.

Far from it for me to disagree with the First Space Lord runsforcelery, but this guy named David Weber seems to disagree with you regarding the numbers, capacity and positioning of life pods of combatant star ships in the Honorverse, when he wrote copyright (2005) :

At All Costs, Chapter 37 wrote:"Both boat bays are trashed, Honor. The Bosun says she thinks she can get the after bay cleared, but it's going to take at least a half-hour. Without that—" Henke shrugged, and Honor bit the inside of her lip so hard she tasted blood.
Without at least one functional boat bay, small craft couldn't dock with Ajax to take her crew off. There were emergency personnel locks, but trying to lift off a significant percentage of her crew that way would take hours, and the battlecruiser carried enough emergency life pods for little more than half her total complement. There was no point carrying more, since only half her crew's battle stations were close enough to the skin of the hull to make a life pod practical.
And her flag bridge was not among the stations which fell into that category.

Italics are the author's, boldface, underlined and colored text is my emphasis.

And he wrote it again (copyright 2009 AD) :

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 2 wrote:They looked at one another for several seconds, neither of them willing to say what they both knew. Without at least one functional boat bay, small craft couldn't dock with Ajax to take her crew off, and she carried enough emergency life pods for a little more than half her total complement. There wasn't much point in carrying more than that, since only half her battle stations were close enough to the skin of her hull to make a life pod practical.
And her flag bridge was far too deeply buried to be one of them.

Italics are the author's, boldface, underlined and colored text is my emphasis.[/quote]


Look, I don't know who this David Weber jerk is, but he just plain got it wrong --- that's all I can say!

Actually, you and Cthia (damn his eyes!) have caught me in a continuity error. There have been a few others over the last 25 years or so, I fear, although I try not to. I suppose I should point out that I was reading from the current iteration of my tech bible when I described the system for Cthia in my original response, so at some point I have revised canon to match what happens in UC. Given how integral all of this is to the plot, I don't see how I can change it in the current book, so my new ruling --- what's the point of being the creator if I can't change the rules in my own sandbox? ( ) is that the Agamemnons' design (being an emergency response to a tactical problem and all) incorporated some unfortunate design compromises, one of which included cutting down on the available paths of life pod escape tubes.

There! [he said brightly] All fixed!


In all honesty, the Aggies really were a barebones design, and I genuinely think I probably had that in mind when I did the original scene in AAC. Then I picked up the same constraints in SftS without even thinking about it.

But what can I say? You got me.

munroburton wrote:Ajax was an Agamemnon-class podlayer. HMS Phantom was a Nike-class.

It isn't clear whether the "not enough escape pods" deficiency was an unique tradeoff of the Agamemnon BC(P) design or whether it applies to all ships with a core hull or even just podlayers with their squashed-up-front internals.

Perhaps the BC(P)'s designers didn't think three(?) boat bays could be trashed without the rest of the ship being destroyed. Ajax's crew was just unlucky.

Thanks, monroburton. I suspect this really is close to what I as thinking at the time, but all these years later, it's a little hard to be sure.

runsforcelery wrote:

munroburton wrote:Ajax was an Agamemnon-class podlayer. HMS Phantom was a Nike-class.

It isn't clear whether the "not enough escape pods" deficiency was an unique tradeoff of the Agamemnon BC(P) design or whether it applies to all ships with a core hull or even just podlayers with their squashed-up-front internals.

Perhaps the BC(P)'s designers didn't think three(?) boat bays could be trashed without the rest of the ship being destroyed. Ajax's crew was just unlucky.

Thanks, monroburton. I suspect this really is close to what I as thinking at the time, but all these years later, it's a little hard to be sure.

To be honest, I only caught it because of the How to Abandon Ship thread. I created that thread because I was lost. Now all I've learned I have to unlearn. Well, it's your tech bible. Who am I to question god if he wants to change a few scriptures in his own bible. LOL

I learned a lot in that thread. First chance I get I'll add these posts to that thread to prevent a case of the blind leading the blind.

Always read from the King James version of your notes RFC.

I have a question, why is everyone shocked that the SLN would destroy the disabled RMN ships? Honor's own task group did just that to a disabled PN battle cruiser at the First Battle of Hancock Station.

From chapter thirty of The Short Victorious War.

The battlecruisers Walid and Sulieman died with her, and other ships took hit after hit. The dreadnought Waldensville staggered as her forward impeller ring was blown apart, and the battlecruiser Malik careened out of formation as her wedge went down completely. A heavy cruiser division tried to cover her against Manticoran sensors with their own wedges, but with neither wedge nor sidewalls, Malik was doomed. Even as Chin watched, her crew took to their escape pods, fleeing their helpless ship before the Manties localized her despite her screen and blew her apart. Waldensville's impeller damage had cut her maximum acceleration in half, the dreadnought Kaplan had lost a quarter of her port broadside, her sister ship Havensport was almost as badly damaged, and the battlecruiser Alp Arslan trailed atmosphere and debris.

Yet her surviving ships were around at last, presenting their full broadsides to the enemy, and their missiles raced after the Manticorans. It was a feeble response to the massive salvo which had ravaged her command, yet she watched the outgoing missile traces with hungry eyes. The Manties were running straight away from her, giving her birds ideal, up-the-kilt shots, but her hand fisted in rage as decoys sucked her fire wide and countermissiles and lasers knocked down the birds that held lock. Unlike her, the enemy had known they'd be taking fire, and their active defenses were frighteningly effective.

A fresh salvo of Manticoran missiles scorched in on Malik. There were only a few dozen of them this time, yet the battlecruiser was a sitting target. Her cruiser screen did its best to stop them, but at least ten got through, and they weren't even laser heads. Megaton-range fireballs enveloped Malik in a star-bright boil; when it cleared, another eight hundred and fifty thousand tons of warship had been wiped away, and Chin swore with silent, bitter venom.

I also recall a number of real world examples, from HMS Dorsetshire torpedoing Bismarck to USS Portland sinking the Japaneses destroyer Yudachi and more recently USS Wainwright and USS Simpson sinking the Iranian missile patrol boat Joshan with gunfire after it had been disabled by five missile hits.

These may not be as clear cut as Snippet #12 but they are examples. It looks to me like Honorverse naval officers still harbor 18th century expectation of naval warfare in what has become a 20th century combat environment. Off the top of my head I can not think of any warship post-19th century that surrendered in battle at sea.

KJakker wrote:I have a question, why is everyone shocked that the SLN would destroy the disabled RMN ships? Honor's own task group did just that to a disabled PN battle cruiser at the First Battle of Hancock Station.

From chapter thirty of The Short Victorious War.

The battlecruisers Walid and Sulieman died with her, and other ships took hit after hit. The dreadnought Waldensville staggered as her forward impeller ring was blown apart, and the battlecruiser Malik careened out of formation as her wedge went down completely. A heavy cruiser division tried to cover her against Manticoran sensors with their own wedges, but with neither wedge nor sidewalls, Malik was doomed. Even as Chin watched, her crew took to their escape pods, fleeing their helpless ship before the Manties localized her despite her screen and blew her apart. Waldensville's impeller damage had cut her maximum acceleration in half, the dreadnought Kaplan had lost a quarter of her port broadside, her sister ship Havensport was almost as badly damaged, and the battlecruiser Alp Arslan trailed atmosphere and debris.

Yet her surviving ships were around at last, presenting their full broadsides to the enemy, and their missiles raced after the Manticorans. It was a feeble response to the massive salvo which had ravaged her command, yet she watched the outgoing missile traces with hungry eyes. The Manties were running straight away from her, giving her birds ideal, up-the-kilt shots, but her hand fisted in rage as decoys sucked her fire wide and countermissiles and lasers knocked down the birds that held lock. Unlike her, the enemy had known they'd be taking fire, and their active defenses were frighteningly effective.

A fresh salvo of Manticoran missiles scorched in on Malik. There were only a few dozen of them this time, yet the battlecruiser was a sitting target. Her cruiser screen did its best to stop them, but at least ten got through, and they weren't even laser heads. Megaton-range fireballs enveloped Malik in a star-bright boil; when it cleared, another eight hundred and fifty thousand tons of warship had been wiped away, and Chin swore with silent, bitter venom.

I also recall a number of real world examples, from HMS Dorsetshire torpedoing Bismarck to USS Portland sinking the Japaneses destroyer Yudachi and more recently USS Wainwright and USS Simpson sinking the Iranian missile patrol boat Joshan with gunfire after it had been disabled by five missile hits.

These may not be as clear cut as Snippet #12 but they are examples. It looks to me like Honorverse naval officers still harbor 18th century expectation of naval warfare in what has become a 20th century combat environment. Off the top of my head I can not think of any warship post-19th century that surrendered in battle at sea.

The difference here (and the reason it's a Deneb violation) is that the targets are totally disabled and abandoning ship. That was not yet clearly the case with the battlecruiser in your example. Moreover, the missiles which hit her had already been launched, targeted, and released to autonomous control. (That it, they are a "fresh salvo" from the Peeps' perspective; from the Manties' perspective, they were already so far down range the links had already been cut.) They probably wouldn't have been diverted from their target, anyway, since the Manties had no way of knowing if she was permanently disabled or about to get her wedge back, but the operable point is that they couldn't have been diverted at this point even if the Manties had wanted to.

What Hajdu is doing is the equivalent of shooting up the lifeboats in the water. He's wrecked his targets; he knows they are abandoning ship; and he chooses to take them out anyway, which is a direct violation of the Deneb Accords.

And ships are quire often surrendered in the Honorverse. It was left to the 20th century to create a situation in which captains were expected to fight their ships till they went down. Prior to that time, the surrender "to prevent a needless effusion of blood" was firmly ingrained in naval tradition. There's been a lot of debate about why that changed, with reasons adduced that range from "it was the advent of total war" to "there's too much technical information to be gained from a surrendered ship" to "the engagements are fought at such extended range that surrender isn't really feasible." In the Honorverse, there's no place to hide, so a ship can't break off and escape "under cover of darkness" if its stealth goes down, and the traditional of honorable surrender is alive and well. Honor ordered Alistair McKeon to surrender in IN ENEMY HANDS, Warner Caslett surrendered in HONOR AMONG ENEMIES, Lester Tourville's entire surviving fleet surrendered in AT ALL COSTS, etc. Different era, different tactical paradigm, different tradition, different laws of war.

Short version: Honor and Sarnow did not violate the laws of war at Hancock Station. Hajdu did violate them at Hypatia.

KJakker wrote:I

These may not be as clear cut as Snippet #12 but they are examples. It looks to me like Honorverse naval officers still harbor 18th century expectation of naval warfare in what has become a 20th century combat environment. Off the top of my head I can not think of any warship post-19th century that surrendered in battle at sea.

Russians to the Japanese after Tageshima, ca AD 1905.

RFC, please allow me one more post regarding abandoning ship. If you'll momentarily play the horse, I'd like to get a few things straight from the horse's mouth because everyone couldn't quite agree on a few matters in that thread.

When abandoning ship, does the wedge, therefore sidewall have to be down? If not, why is there no danger of pods slamming into the sidewall?

When the fusion bottle is about to let go, crew are abandoning ship but the wedge is still up, sidewall as well. And the pods are being launched at a nice clip, toward the sidewalls it seems.

We've determined that an opening in the sidewalls most likely occurs to allow the core to pass through during ejection. And of course, if the bottle goes before it clears the sidewall, i.e., the space between the ship and the sidewall, game over?

My concern is if the wedge is failing, but the sidewalls are partly intact, that they would remain up to absorb battle damage thus allowing more time to evacuate. But if up, do they impede evacuation?


At any rate, some say yay, some say nay. You say?