[SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .

Like I said, I have no problem placing myself into the character's shoes or into the scene. This is going to be a very long trial. Lawfully, each defendant has the right to be tried separately, considering different levels of culpability. And the fact that it's the law.

Consider that the O.J. Simpson trial lasted more than a whopping eight months. Opening statements for the murder trial were given on Jan. 24, 1995, and a verdict was reached on Oct. 3, 1995.

That's what kind of high powered defense a high powered lawyer can deliver to someone with access to swimming pools full of money. Remember how we became sick of the trial on tv? I wouldn't be surprised if this trial is broadcast over HD for over a year. Talk about a busy Manticoran star system in the midst of DEFCON 3! Heck, the SEM may be able to pay off any debts just by the traffic in and out of the junctions surrounding this trial! And that damn mudslinging vixen Audrey O'Hanrahan is going to have a field day heaving broadcasting pipe bombs and reporting bollocks! For over a year, at least! Whipping the natives into a frenzy.

The SEM better look out. This may very well be a good time for an MA attack. There's bound to be some MA activity in the system. After all, this is going to be the biggest trial in the history of mankind!

ywing14 wrote:

cthia wrote:I can't help but putting myself into the shoes of the average Solly-in-the-street trying to come to terms with a rewritten Constitution. Take present day U.S. as a model. Could we survive a rewritten Constitution completely broken down and redone - which has to permeate into the minds of its citizens who will be ignorant of it? Those in power will exploit the ignorant and civil unrest will have a real opportunity to take hold.

I see that problem magnified in the League where so many planets have to receive, digest and accept the new Constitution. Without being exploited yet again. I'm happy that at least you see it as a smooth transition. That eases my worry a bit that the League will become an unmanageable mess. Especially with the MA exploiting loopholes and tainting the milk.

I understand that the League was never meant to be a government, but old habits die hard. At any rate, didn't the League become a government because of a real need? Someone has to police the frontier and settle disputes and problems that cannot be settled locally. What entity will replace that "governance?" Civil unrest and disagreement between planets cannot be left to the children.

The USA survived it once. We had the Articles of Confederation which didn't work. Frankly, I find them rather similar to what the Sollies had. Extremely weak federal government with no real ability to tax and derive revenue.

Do I think it could survive it again? I'm not sure. The current constitution was designed to be changed as things changed. I think a completely new system would be a hard sell.

Daryl wrote:Speaking as an outsider I find the reverence shown to the US Constitution by some members of the US to be puzzling. Sure it is an important document, but as circumstances change it also should change. Not easily perhaps but after due process certainly.
Most non US citizens I'm sure would find your attitude to be strange.
So as an Earth citizen I have no problem with the SOL constitution being rewritten.

Well Daryl. . .

It would frighten the hell out of me!

As school kids, most - if not all - Americans had to learn large parts of the U.S. Constitution and recite these parts in class by heart. Same for the Bill of Rights and The Declaration of Independence. I can still recite what I learned word for word. And I'd be surprised if the average American who grew up in my era can't. The Bill of Rights, which guarantees certain rights. The average American would not want anyone rewriting and fumbling around with his rights! Hell, the country is already seriously divided on one single right. The right to bear arms. And you want to allow some group of asswipes, who may or may not be shady and bearing their own agenda, access to the long dried ink of The US Constitution?

"OFF WITH HIS HEAD! O-F-F!"

"DROP THE PHUCKING GUILLOTINE AGAIN!"

"GET THAT ONE TOO!"

"Not American? Well get his ass outta here before we—"

Changing one iota of these very important American documents s-l-o-w-l-y is one thing. But we're proposing a complete rewrite!

You want a nationwide riot!!!

"Get him!"

"RUN DARYL RUN!"

"FASTER DARYL FASTER!"

"RUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!"




"GOT HIM!"

"Look, he's foaming at the mouth. I think he's delirious."

cthia wrote:Well Daryl. . .

It would frighten the hell out of me!

As school kids, most - if not all - Americans had to learn large parts of the U.S. Constitution and recite these parts in class by heart. Same for the Bill of Rights and The Declaration of Independence. I can still recite what I learned word for word. And I'd be surprised if the average American who grew up in my era can't. The Bill of Rights, which guarantees certain rights. The average American would not want anyone rewriting and fumbling around with his rights! Hell, the country is already seriously divided on one single right. The right to bear arms. And you want to allow some group of asswipes, who may or may not be shady and bearing their own agenda, access to the long dried ink of The US Constitution?

"OFF WITH HIS HEAD! O-F-F!"

"DROP THE PHUCKING GUILLOTINE AGAIN!"

"GET THAT ONE TOO!"

"Not American? Well get his ass outta here before we—"

Changing one iota of these very important American documents s-l-o-w-l-y is one thing. But we're proposing a complete rewrite!

You want a nationwide riot!!!

"Get him!"

"RUN DARYL RUN!"

"FASTER DARYL FASTER!"

"RUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!"


"GOT HIM!"

"Look, he's foaming at the mouth. I think he's delirious."

Funnily enough (just like the Solarian League) the government has run roughshod all over the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and hardly anyone cares except when people start talking about regulating guns.

I'm a bit afraid we have strayed a bit into real world politics, but sometimes fiction have parallels in reality and vice versa.

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:Well Daryl. . .

It would frighten the hell out of me!

As school kids, most - if not all - Americans had to learn large parts of the U.S. Constitution and recite these parts in class by heart. Same for the Bill of Rights and The Declaration of Independence. I can still recite what I learned word for word. And I'd be surprised if the average American who grew up in my era can't. The Bill of Rights, which guarantees certain rights. The average American would not want anyone rewriting and fumbling around with his rights! Hell, the country is already seriously divided on one single right. The right to bear arms. And you want to allow some group of asswipes, who may or may not be shady and bearing their own agenda, access to the long dried ink of The US Constitution?

"OFF WITH HIS HEAD! O-F-F!"

"DROP THE PHUCKING GUILLOTINE AGAIN!"

"GET THAT ONE TOO!"

"Not American? Well get his ass outta here before we—"

Changing one iota of these very important American documents s-l-o-w-l-y is one thing. But we're proposing a complete rewrite!

You want a nationwide riot!!!

"Get him!"

"RUN DARYL RUN!"

"FASTER DARYL FASTER!"

"RUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!"


"GOT HIM!"

"Look, he's foaming at the mouth. I think he's delirious."

Funnily enough (just like the Solarian League) the government has run roughshod all over the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and hardly anyone cares except when people start talking about regulating guns.

I'm a bit afraid we have strayed a bit into real world politics, but sometimes fiction have parallels in reality and vice versa.

Exactly who told you that Americans didn't care? Hard to see the big picture from your vantage point of. . . Sweden?

cthia wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Funnily enough (just like the Solarian League) the government has run roughshod all over the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and hardly anyone cares except when people start talking about regulating guns.

I'm a bit afraid we have strayed a bit into real world politics, but sometimes fiction have parallels in reality and vice versa.

Exactly who told you that Americans didn't care? Hard to see the big picture from your vantage point of. . . Sweden?

I don't want to start a political discussion in this forum, but sometimes it's much easier to see problems when you are looking in from the outside.

cthia wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Funnily enough (just like the Solarian League) the government has run roughshod all over the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and hardly anyone cares except when people start talking about regulating guns.

I'm a bit afraid we have strayed a bit into real world politics, but sometimes fiction have parallels in reality and vice versa.

Exactly who told you that Americans didn't care? Hard to see the big picture from your vantage point of. . . Sweden?

Joat42 wrote:I don't want to start a political discussion in this forum, but sometimes it's much easier to see problems when you are looking in from the outside.

Much easier to create them from the outside too.

Non Americans don't only suffer from a disconnect regarding all things American, but their disconnect is disconnected too. It ain't the alcohol talking this time. It's that damn internet making all sorts of people believe they are experts in all things foreign and domestic.

Joat42 wrote:Funnily enough (just like the Solarian League) the government has run roughshod all over the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and hardly anyone cares except when people start talking about regulating guns.

I'm a bit afraid we have strayed a bit into real world politics, but sometimes fiction have parallels in reality and vice versa.

cthia wrote:Exactly who told you that Americans didn't care? Hard to see the big picture from your vantage point of. . . Sweden?

Joat42 wrote:I don't want to start a political discussion in this forum, but sometimes it's much easier to see problems when you are looking in from the outside.

cthia wrote:Much easier to create them from the outside too.

Non Americans don't only suffer from a disconnect regarding all things American, but their disconnect is disconnected too. It ain't the alcohol talking this time. It's that damn internet making all sorts of people believe they are experts in all things foreign and domestic.

"The Constitution is just a piece of paper" - G.W. Bush
Justice Antonin Scalia: The US Constitution is 'Dead'

A question, do you think the situation in the US has gotten better or worse since those videos was produced?

Joat42 wrote:

Joat42 wrote:Funnily enough (just like the Solarian League) the government has run roughshod all over the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and hardly anyone cares except when people start talking about regulating guns.

I'm a bit afraid we have strayed a bit into real world politics, but sometimes fiction have parallels in reality and vice versa.

cthia wrote:Exactly who told you that Americans didn't care? Hard to see the big picture from your vantage point of. . . Sweden?

Joat42 wrote:I don't want to start a political discussion in this forum, but sometimes it's much easier to see problems when you are looking in from the outside.

cthia wrote:Much easier to create them from the outside too.

Non Americans don't only suffer from a disconnect regarding all things American, but their disconnect is disconnected too. It ain't the alcohol talking this time. It's that damn internet making all sorts of people believe they are experts in all things foreign and domestic.

"The Constitution is just a piece of paper" - G.W. Bush
Justice Antonin Scalia: The US Constitution is 'Dead'

A question, do you think the situation in the US has gotten better or worse since those videos was produced?

Joat, create a topic in the Politics forum, take this post with you, and I'll drop in. I admit that I don't really wish to discuss American politics with disconnected non Americans. It's why I bowed out of the discussion on guns there. I have my hands full with the idiots in my own country to deal with foreigners on most subjects. But I'll keep my promise and at least make an appearance or three.

In your defense, the US government has been accused on many occasions of the same transgressions against other countries as I accuse foreigners in their discussions about the US. Sticking your nose in affairs you know absolutely nothing about. My own government has made many mistakes purporting to know anything about the history of other countries and the subtle strife and conflict within, oftentimes religious. Reminds me of the faux pas Houseman committed. And they've gotten us into conflicts that I, personally, don't think we have any business. BUT! At least the US ONI, IINM, have much more intel and much better sources to rely upon other than the internet. And if they are still oftentimes way off base, what makes you think you're better? If you are, there's a spot waiting for you at ONI. If you think you're qualified, I have access to lots of bottom land that the author has promised to sell me. But let's keep it hush hush shall we? He'll surely raise his prices if he finds out I'm making a killing on you.

If I made the same mistake, my mother would crawl out of her grave and give me a piece of her mind, and her belt! And I'd take it too, the arrogant little miscreant I'd be.

Daryl wrote:Speaking as an outsider I find the reverence shown to the US Constitution by some members of the US to be puzzling. Sure it is an important document, but as circumstances change it also should change. Not easily perhaps but after due process certainly.
Most non US citizens I'm sure would find your attitude to be strange.
So as an Earth citizen I have no problem with the SOL constitution being rewritten.

ywing14 wrote: I can't help but putting myself into the shoes of the average Solly-in-the-street trying to come to terms with a rewritten Constitution. Take present day U.S. as a model. Could we survive a rewritten Constitution completely broken down and redone - which has to permeate into the minds of its citizens who will be ignorant of it? Those in power will exploit the ignorant and civil unrest will have a real opportunity to take hold.

I see that problem magnified in the League where so many planets have to receive, digest and accept the new Constitution. Without being exploited yet again. I'm happy that at least you see it as a smooth transition. That eases my worry a bit that the League will become an unmanageable mess. Especially with the MA exploiting loopholes and tainting the milk.

I understand that the League was never meant to be a government, but old habits die hard. At any rate, didn't the League become a government because of a real need? Someone has to police the frontier and settle disputes and problems that cannot be settled locally. What entity will replace that "governance?" Civil unrest and disagreement between planets cannot be left to the children.

The USA survived it once. We had the Articles of Confederation which didn't work. Frankly, I find them rather similar to what the Sollies had. Extremely weak federal government with no real ability to tax and derive revenue.

Do I think it could survive it again? I'm not sure. The current constitution was designed to be changed as things changed. I think a completely new system would be a hard sell.

[/quote]

Well Daryl with that kind of arrogant statement you’re either British, Canadian, or some other former British colony. The US constitution had been changed 27 times. Don’t even get me started on us state constitutions. If I remember correctly Alabama is over 500 amendments. As an American I would agree most of us view that document as very important to our country. Do we all agree on its interpretation? Of course not. I’d be happy to discuss all these things and more in the politics section.

cthia wrote:Joat, create a topic in the Politics forum, take this post with you, and I'll drop in. I admit that I don't really wish to discuss American politics with disconnected non Americans. It's why I bowed out of the discussion on guns there. I have my hands full with the idiots in my own country to deal with foreigners on most subjects. But I'll keep my promise and at least make an appearance or three.

Agreed, this discussion belongs in the Politics forum.

But as I said earlier in this thread, sometimes real world politics parallels fictional politics - and in those instances I guess it's okay to compare the two as long as we don't stray into pure real world politics debates.

On a closely related topic, it's quite easy to be myopic concerning your own countries politics. Just look at how the mandarins where able to manipulate the Solarian public and how many people looking in from the outside saw the lies and transgressions for what they where.

We all have blank spots on internal politics because often we lack the overall picture an external viewpoint can give.