Oyster Harbor?

George J. Smith wrote:

cthia wrote:Of course. I could read "name is omen" without translating. But oftentimes, regions and nations, like Germany, have their own subtle translation local to the region. Especially since German is part of the same subgroup of languages as vulgar latin and latin.

I believe German has a root in the Gothic languages not the Romance languages stemming from Latin, although both have a root in the Indo-European language.

There is an inside joke circulating amongst some Language and Linguist professors. . .

All languages stem from Latin, that is what is so vulgar.

The group in which I speak is Indo-European.

No one knows from whence Latin sprang, though I have my own theory that would almost certainly spark a religious war from here to Kingdom Come.

cthia wrote:

Fireflair wrote:During a reread of Storm from the Shadows I noticed that Albrecht is talking with his sons about future operations. Oyster Bay is mentioned, along with a few others. One of which is called Oyster Harbor. I can't find a reference to this anywhere else in the series.

Was this just a typo that got dropped into the text or was Oyster Harbor supposed to be a follow up strike to Oyster Bay? Using the Lenny Dets instead of the Sharks?

Eagleeye wrote:I think it was a typo. After all, Oyster Bay should use the Lenny Dets, if anything went as originally planned. But "Beatrice" gave the Alignment too good an opportunity to miss it (or so they thought, at least), even if they could target 'only' Manticore and Grayson with the available sharks - the original plan covered Haven, too, iIrc - so they acted.

First thought I had was that it was the name for the Haven leg of Oyster Bay, but no, probably not.

I wonder if it isn't so much as a typo rather than an editing error. Perhaps RFC originally planned to call the operation Oyster Harbor - mimicking Pearl Harbor - since the operation seems to be a MAlign adopted version of Pearl Harbor, and therefore that one spot represents the one place in text the editing was missed.

No, it was always Oyster Bay. Which doesn't mean that I didn't miss-speak while dictating to Dragon. And, of course, when I proofed, I saw what I knew was supposed to be there. Alas, I am less than perfect! I know this will come to everyone as a dreadful shock, but there it is.

cthia wrote:Perhaps RFC originally planned to call the operation Oyster Harbor - mimicking Pearl Harbor - since the operation seems to be a MAlign adopted version of Pearl Harbor, and therefore that one spot represents the one place in text the editing was missed.

East wind, rain.

Thanks RFC!

It just occurred to me when I was reading Storm from the Shadows that there might have been two separate operations. Since they're both spoken about in virtually the same paragraph and there is no reason that the MAlign couldn't have a scaled down attack called Oyster Bay in which they go after Grayson and Manticore, while they had a full version attack called Oyster Harbor in which they go after Haven as well. Haven really ups the number of attack vessels because of how much more widely dispersed their many yards are. If I recall correctly they were projecting to need hundreds of Sharks to pull off the full scale attack. (which they don't have at the time)

Of course this discussion occurs a hundred or so pages, maybe two hundred, before the MAlign gets together in their great big buried audience chamber to discuss the fall out from the Havenite's failed attack on the Manticore home system. There they discuss the how and why of going through with Oyster Bay at that time and also why they won't be going after Haven. Primarily because they only have the limited number Sharks to use though also because they really want to hamstring Manticore before they get Apollo into full service.

If the Alignement planned to attack Heaven, too, means that they know the location of Bolthole?

Maldorian wrote:If the Alignement planned to attack Heaven, too, means that they know the location of Bolthole?

If they plan to attack "Heaven," they know the location of God.

But your point is well taken Maldorian. I hinted at it as well and enquired about whether the MA does indeed know its location. I didn't think they did, but a plan to attack Haven would not have fared well at destroying their shipbuilding capacity w/o destroying Bolthole.

As I understand it, they know of its existence but not its location. Which doesn't make sense, since they must know that such an attack would be useless if they cannot cut off the head. So the logic seems flawed either that they even know of the existence of Bolthole, or their logic is flawed to want to include Haven in such an attack w/o knowing the location of Bolthole - while taking such risks of exposure. All for naught.

Fox2! wrote:

cthia wrote:Perhaps RFC originally planned to call the operation Oyster Harbor - mimicking Pearl Harbor - since the operation seems to be a MAlign adopted version of Pearl Harbor, and therefore that one spot represents the one place in text the editing was missed.

East wind, rain.

Have not read the book, should I?

Maldorian wrote:If the Alignement planned to attack Heaven, too, means that they know the location of Bolthole?

No, it doesn’t. In fact, that was one of the arguments against hitting Haven. Recall that the original concern was Haven even more than Manticore. Of course, that was back in the day. The Peoples Republic of Haven was their creation to cripple/defang Haven, but there was always an Oyster Bay option for going after Haven, although the exact weapons tech was in a state of flux as options changed and evolved. The war against Manticore drove their hand, however. They had seen, recognized, and worked to create the same fracture lines in the League that Barregos had seen, but the League wasn’t “ripe” yet when the Havenite wars drove naval tech in the Haven Sector to unacceptable levels and made Manticore a far greater military and moral threat to their plans. At that point, they needed to knock Manticore out of the equation, but lacked the resources (yet — remember that their hand was being forced, timing wise) to do so on their own. They were looking for Bolthole but had not found it, so they decided to make a virtue out of necessity and attempted to cripple Manticore so badly, when the SKM’s back was to the Solarian wall, that any self respecting conquistador would have to take the opportunity to climb back off the mat and finish it off. They had no idea where Bolthole was, and in the current iteration of their plan, they didn’t need to know ... yet.

BTW, it’s important to remember that they never wanted to launch OB when they did. Manticore’s imminent victory over Haven, creating a counterweight for their plans that was at least as dangerous to their strategy as pre-Legislaturalist Haven, pushed them into committing to the operation we’ll before their naval planners felt confident they had the forces to guarantee success. ,

Yes, this.

It's in a later part of the book where they're having their big unground meeting with the inner onion members that they discuss Manticore's tech advantage, as well as the reeling state of the Manticore home system.

The logic the Detweiler's advance is thus:

1. Haven has no effective current war fighting tech. They threw most of it at Manticore and lost by a hair in a winner take all lunge. Whatever is coming down the pipeline isn't in play yet.
2. Manticore has been hit very hard and they need to be hit harder still before they get the new tech (Apollo) into general production.
3. Grayson has the same tech as Manticore, so it gets hit at the same time.
4. The Ghosts have done the scouting and now it's time for the Sharks to go in. However the MAlign doesn't have enough Sharks to go after Haven and Manticore/Grayson at the same time.

runsforcelery wrote:No, it was always Oyster Bay. Which doesn't mean that I didn't miss-speak while dictating to Dragon. And, of course, when I proofed, I saw what I knew was supposed to be there. Alas, I am less than perfect! I know this will come to everyone as a dreadful shock, but there it is.

I always thought "Oyster Bay" was a reference to the town on Long Island, location of Sagamore Hill, Teddy Roosevelt's "summer White House". But perhaps that's carrying the historical references too far!