[SPOILERS] Now that the war is over . . .

ywing14 wrote:

cthia wrote:and the junctions are fully open. . .



What is the face of business in the galaxy? Will lawsuits against the Manticoran government begin to pour in from all over the galaxy? Is Manticore liable for lost property and wages due to the spoils of war?

Will the jockeying for open markets take on the appearance of a gold rush?

Will Manticore raise junction fees to offset lost revenue and to help rebuild its infrastructure?

Will a mad dash to court the suddenly open markets due to the recent events in the League cause Superpowers to bump heads?

Unlikely, they'll be able to sue and SEM isn't responsible for lost wages and property. Especially once war was declared.

I would imagine that Manticore does indeed put that loophole into its contracts. Most probably all nations do.

But many of the businesses that would be complaining are in the League, and those businesses may cite the fact that their losts occurred as a result of factors occurring when there was no formal declaration of war, even by Manticore. Lacoon I occurred under a de facto state of war. IINM.

Therefore, should not be covered under the clause "State of War."

I recall the inevitable likelihood of lawsuits being discussed by two of the parties - Manticoran and Solarian - who had long been doing business with each and were perhaps the closest thing to friends/colleagues as a Manty/Solarian could get. Methinks I even recall the Manty officer accepting the inevitable probability of litigation, but adding that it'd be a matter for the courts to decide and that he was simply following orders.

Litigation was discussed, and I sure it'll be attempted. But I think it's unlikely to have a significant impact. Manticore set up the huge loan program for its own companies but even Honor stated many of the small shipping cartels would likely go under. Most likely it'll be you deal with yours SL 2.0 and we'll deal with ours.

ywing14 wrote:Litigation was discussed, and I sure it'll be attempted. But I think it's unlikely to have a significant impact. Manticore set up the huge loan program for its own companies but even Honor stated many of the small shipping cartels would likely go under. Most likely it'll be you deal with yours SL 2.0 and we'll deal with ours.

There is that. Another likely possibility is that one of the demands of Harrington's was that the League pay reparations to RMN companies who lost revenue and cover the losts of its own companies as a result of its intransigence.

Bottom line is there's going to be lots of companies on both sides of the war screaming bloody murder. Manticore isn't going to want to lose such a huge injection of revenue into its economy. An economy which needs to get back on its feet. Especially considering that much of Manticore's revenue is as a result of it's shipping in League bottoms using its junctions. Manticore would want to keep its carrying trade healthy, therefore its freighter companies healthy and not going belly up.

Reparations should be sought against the League and diverted to cover the lost revenue of Manticoran shipping companies. After all, to the victor goes the spoils.

ywing14 wrote:Litigation was discussed, and I sure it'll be attempted. But I think it's unlikely to have a significant impact. Manticore set up the huge loan program for its own companies but even Honor stated many of the small shipping cartels would likely go under. Most likely it'll be you deal with yours SL 2.0 and we'll deal with ours.

The forfeit of the surety bond when they took off with the cargo they were entrusted with or otherwise broke their delivery terms will make resumption of SL trade difficult. The bond is not a trivial amounts of money to come up with, which is why your customers insist that you provide it.

kzt wrote:

ywing14 wrote:Litigation was discussed, and I sure it'll be attempted. But I think it's unlikely to have a significant impact. Manticore set up the huge loan program for its own companies but even Honor stated many of the small shipping cartels would likely go under. Most likely it'll be you deal with yours SL 2.0 and we'll deal with ours.

The forfeit of the surety bond when they took off with the cargo they were entrusted with or otherwise broke their delivery terms will make resumption of SL trade difficult. The bond is not a trivial amounts of money to come up with, which is why your customers insist that you provide it.

That's an unforeseen application of the carrot and stick that I didn't see coming. What reasons would governments inside the League have to renew trade agreements with Manticore if they default on previous obligations without restitution? Even if the loophole of "war" does cover it. Especially since they've been screaming to the galaxy at large that there's another player in the soup that has already smashed their infrastructure, meaning war could arise for the Manties at any time leaving new contracts to burn yet again.


But then, it's hard to get around using FED EXtra-RMN shipping, the largest shipping company in the galaxy. And I rather doubt the League wants to start a trade war with the Haven sector. Which gives them motive to work something out with their distressed companies. Somehow. It wouldn't be the first time in the history of that planet that insane government bailouts were issued. LOL

Astute point kzt.

I really can't see the RMN allowing the disparity in weight of metal between it and the RHN to continue. Given past history, that'd be criminally negligent. Nothing personal against Pritcharts idea of an alliance, but evening the score of ships is just business.

And of course, the sight of the RMN again reaching parity with them might make certain people within the Republic just a mite nervous. Besides, internally, Beth knows that the Leopard is genetically predisposed to changing its spots. A reality that can occur with any ally, at any time, especially following regime changes, like when Pritchart's day in the sun sets. On that note, I can't believe the MA hasn't targeted Pritchart. She's half the tube of superglue holding the Alliance together, on her side of the fence. Theisman being the other.

Besides, the galaxy is simply experiencing a calm before the storm. It isn't quite rid of its trouble makers. And since the RMN has no idea at all what's coming out of the shadows, they'd better get their shhh . . . ssships together.

.

ywing14 wrote:

cthia wrote:I think the GA is going to be focused on putting all of its pieces together.

The SL creating a functioning government.

Isn't that going to consist of some spending on Manticore's part? Right now the Havenite's are probably footing an inordinate amount of the bill, seeing as though Bolthole is hosting the lion's share of the building and R&D. Dunno if their costs are being defrayed by the Manties, or simply an IOU has been issued. At any rate, the Manties may have to take care of a ballooning payment. They wouldn't want hostilities to rekindle because of an outstanding note. Eloise doesn't govern in a vacuum, she has a Republic to answer to.

Besides, if Manticore fails to ante up now that it can begin to stand on its own two feet, wouldn't that make them guilty of the same thing most allies do - leave the spending to the suckers. America knows about that intimately. Our allies don't even use KY jelly. Too cheap to even buy that as well.

I would say it's unlikely the RoH is footing a disproportionate part of the bill. If they are paying more in gross terms it's because they're larger than the SEM. But as a percentage of their GDP I'd say they're probably both equal. That doesn't even count all the access they are getting to SEM Tech and Markets now. I'm not sure they could put a price tag on that. Bolthole may be building those things, but the SEM is paying for its ships being built there and providing access to things like Apollo and other tech. If anything RoH is likely making money because it is the primary industrial center now.

Most of the actual issues were settled when they formed the alliance. Payment would have been one of the things they discussed. There is no indication in any of the books that the RoH is paying or doing more than any others. Frankly it hasn't been their civilians doing the dying either.[/quote]

Way back when, RFC noted that taxation levels on Manticore were pretty low. Very simple taxes as well. Basically, the junctions provided a real lot of the money.

Keeping up the fleet should not be all that big a problem. There may not be major expansion but I would guess there will be new building of ships based on R & D with replacement for older models of ships. After a decade, the Rolands will be the only destroyers (and there may well be upgrades to THOSE) and the Hexampuma C and Nike models will rule in the cruiser/battle cruiser realm.

Keep in mind that at this point, the Rolands can pretty well beat most things that can be thrown at them.

And the people in power are on prolong. Elizabeth is not going to forget the messes created by building down. She could be reigning for another century.

cthia wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I think the GA is going to be focused on putting all of its pieces together.

The SL creating a functioning government.

Isn't that going to consist of some spending on Manticore's part? Right now the Havenite's are probably footing an inordinate amount of the bill, seeing as though Bolthole is hosting the lion's share of the building and R&D. Dunno if their costs are being defrayed by the Manties, or simply an IOU has been issued. At any rate, the Manties may have to take care of a ballooning payment. They wouldn't want hostilities to rekindle because of an outstanding note. Eloise doesn't govern in a vacuum, she has a Republic to answer to.

Besides, if Manticore fails to ante up now that it can begin to stand on its own two feet, wouldn't that make them guilty of the same thing most allies do - leave the spending to the suckers. America knows about that intimately. Our allies don't even use KY jelly. Too cheap to even buy that as well.

ywing14 wrote:I would say it's unlikely the RoH is footing a disproportionate part of the bill. If they are paying more in gross terms it's because they're larger than the SEM. But as a percentage of their GDP I'd say they're probably both equal. That doesn't even count all the access they are getting to SEM Tech and Markets now. I'm not sure they could put a price tag on that. Bolthole may be building those things, but the SEM is paying for its ships being built there and providing access to things like Apollo and other tech. If anything RoH is likely making money because it is the primary industrial center now.

Most of the actual issues were settled when they formed the alliance. Payment would have been one of the things they discussed. There is no indication in any of the books that the RoH is paying or doing more than any others. Frankly it hasn't been their civilians doing the dying either.

I'd certainly agree that the details were agreed upon with the alliance. I merely [ass-u-me-d] that Manticore may have operated on credit. Being that it was hurting the most from the closed junctions. Because it was spending money hand over fist to rebuild, catch up and keep up, and they really couldn't see light at the end of the tunnel. They could have financially crippled itself, if the war had continued to drag on and on and on. I could easily have been wrong, just explaining my thought patterns.

I could also be wrong that Haven was in a better financial position, being as the war was not its resource draining gorilla, except only by proxy.

One thing I always wondered regarding the Honorverse is how war affects a star systems economy. At the end of WWI, Europe owed other countries over $10B. Not just lots, but tons of loot in those days.

Also, Manticore didn't just suffer in a vacuum, there are several other planets under its golden rainbow. Then there's Grayson's economy that surely took a devastating hit - only a single planet system feeding its piggybank.

Not to mention the ongoing prohibitive costs of trying to maintain. . .

DEFCON 3. INDEFINITELY.