Slavery and Serfdom, why, how?

Thanks for the insight

One thought about the Noble Titles is that what we read are translations of the actual Safehold Titles.

The Safehold word for "King" is not actually "King" but the MWW uses "king" because we the readers know what a king is.

Of course, the Church may have taken a myriad of local "noble" titles and established "official" noble titles along with a ranking of "to get this title, you have to control so much land or number of people".

Whitecold wrote:I am wondering where the knowledge of Noble titles was preserved, as it does not seem to be writ declared, but grown after the day of creation.
The one snipped we have about the Adams and Eves just has a Mayor of the town.
On the other hand english nobility titles and their ranking are unlikely to be common knowledge in the federation, so they had to be reinstated, likely by the church given the harmonization in titles across Safehold.

Second thought, if "nobles" started to develop while some of the "Archangels" were still around, the "Archangels" could have named the titles.

DrakBibliophile wrote:One thought about the Noble Titles is that what we read are translations of the actual Safehold Titles.

The Safehold word for "King" is not actually "King" but the MWW uses "king" because we the readers know what a king is.

Of course, the Church may have taken a myriad of local "noble" titles and established "official" noble titles along with a ranking of "to get this title, you have to control so much land or number of people".

Whitecold wrote:I am wondering where the knowledge of Noble titles was preserved, as it does not seem to be writ declared, but grown after the day of creation.
The one snipped we have about the Adams and Eves just has a Mayor of the town.
On the other hand english nobility titles and their ranking are unlikely to be common knowledge in the federation, so they had to be reinstated, likely by the church given the harmonization in titles across Safehold.

Basically, the Honorverse diaspora is a good model for how the new colonies were dispersed in early Safehold. The colonies of both Verses were sent to imperfectly habitable locations with limited resources to overcome life threatening difficulties. The colonists needed to succeed and had very small margins for error. There was very little redundancy and some jobs needed to be done regardless of how many wanted to willingly perform the job. The different base "mindsets" RFC mentions explains the societies of Siddermark and Harchong.

So if the practical limitations of colonizing an alien world with muscle powered tools and a powerful inhibition against innovating solutions for their problems led to slavery and serfdom, the practical benefits of a more modern economy with relatively fast and easy wealth transfers will surely doom those institutions as economic labor models. There will be people who find owning others attractive for various reasons, those reasons however won't be economic ones.

Just as a greater facility for making and accepting payments will spark greater freedom in the labor pool, it will also spark the ability to fund novelties. Some of these novelties will be very innovative and useful. As the economies of Safehold improve their ability to make wealth transfers both relatively easy and safe, they will unleash freedom for most of the Safehold population. That more than anything will threaten the GoGA's control over their congregants.

The best way to allow people to think and ask meaningful questions is to give them liesure time. An efficient economy means more liesure time as well as more goods and services available for everyone. That leisure time leads to thinking and research and discussions and private associations. In short leisure time leads to more people conducting their individualized queries into the existential questions of life. In RL we see the different branches of religion and philosophy On Safehold no doubt we will get into the why's behind God's will and the variances between observations and the implications of the Writ's literal words describing the universe.

Thanks for the info on what happened.

Annachie wrote:I think people are missing a basic point.

Safehold has no slaves or aparent nobility before the war of the fallen, and not only slavery, serfdom, and nobility but changes to the holy writ and the churches after it.

I'm betting slavery was introduced after the war by Chohiro (sp?) quite possibly as a form of punishment.

Nobility, as a form of control.

I agree, but I don't think it was done by Chichiro himself. I think it was done by more regional administrator angels. Why?

Siddarmark.

Siddarmark is a republic and apparently always has been. While feudalism was introduced to other parts of Safehold, likely I think under some more romantic notion of how feudalism worked than the real world one, whoever was in charge of Siddarmark promoted more democratic and republic forms of government.

Also, I believe one of the Desnairans had thoughts about how his ancestors had been made nobles by the angels. And if angels were handing out aristocratic titles for Desnair, why not also for Siddarmark? The only answer I can think of that makes any sense is that the angels in charge of running Siddarmark preferred a more democratic system.

Alternatively, Siddarmark had much less angelic interference in its formative years than the other mainland nations. The angels didn't promote republicanism but didn't discourage it either. So Siddarmark's republic grew out of the town councils and what not that they've had since Creation, while the other nations were "rewarded" with aristocratic titles by the angels for services rendered.

Chihiro himself likely didn't care how the various regions governed themselves. If he had, then Siddarmark would never have been a republic, or at least it would have been noted than the previous aristocratic system had been overthrown in favor of a republic. AFAICT, that kind of total change not only in regime, but in how government is run just never happened prior to Merlin waking up for the first time.

The Church AFTER Chihiro was gone clearly preferred aristocratic systems because it made nations easier to manipulate. But that's what it was: AFTER Chihiro was gone. Chihiro himself never needed any such political levers. He was an ArchAngel after all; if he says jump, then every nation on Safehold INCLUDING Republican Siddarmark would jump.

Now places like Charis and the other out islands apparently didn't start with feudal system or have nobles appointed by angels, but instead copied what most of the mainland nations were doing. And given that most of them were unified by strong man conquest, it's no surprise that the original conquerors would prefer a feudal system that leaves them and their families in power rather than a democratic system that could theoretically oust them without a fight.

evilauthor wrote:

Annachie wrote:I think people are missing a basic point.

Safehold has no slaves or aparent nobility before the war of the fallen, and not only slavery, serfdom, and nobility but changes to the holy writ and the churches after it.

I'm betting slavery was introduced after the war by Chohiro (sp?) quite possibly as a form of punishment.

Nobility, as a form of control.

I agree, but I don't think it was done by Chichiro himself. I think it was done by more regional administrator angels. Why?

Siddarmark.

Siddarmark is a republic and apparently always has been. While feudalism was introduced to other parts of Safehold, likely I think under some more romantic notion of how feudalism worked than the real world one, whoever was in charge of Siddarmark promoted more democratic and republic forms of government.

SNIP

Unfortunately, Siddarmark has not "always" been a republic. If you will recall, when Greyghor is watching the Sword of Schueler roll across the plaza towards Protector's Palace before Ahnzhelyk/Aivah/Nynian and her riflemen intervene, he is reflecting upon the fact that he is armed with the Siddarmarkian sword of state . . . which is also the sword of the very first lord protector. In other words, the fellow who oversaw the creation of the republic.

I may or may not ever get around to giving you the backstory on the Republic and how it came into existence, just as I may or may not get around to giving you the backstory on Harchong, Desnair, Chisholm, etc. To date, that information hasn't really been significant, so I haven't shared it.

runsforcelery wrote:Unfortunately, Siddarmark has not "always" been a republic. If you will recall, when Greyghor is watching the Sword of Schueler roll across the plaza towards Protector's Palace before Ahnzhelyk/Aivah/Nynian and her riflemen intervene, he is reflecting upon the fact that he is armed with the Siddarmarkian sword of state . . . which is also the sword of the very first lord protector. In other words, the fellow who oversaw the creation of the republic.

I may or may not ever get around to giving you the backstory on the Republic and how it came into existence, just as I may or may not get around to giving you the backstory on Harchong, Desnair, Chisholm, etc. To date, that information hasn't really been significant, so I haven't shared it.

Hmm. So that begs the question, if the original "Lord Protector" was supposed to be an inherited autocracy and not an elected position, why did that change? A violent peasant uprising seems unlikely given empires like Harchong and Desnair.

I still can't help but get the feeling that Angelic meddling was involved in the Republic's founding, even if it was only an angel going:

Angel: "Oh, so that's how you're going to organize yourselves? It looks like a Republic."

Lord Protector: "Is that what this form of government called? Siddarmark Republic. I like the sound of that."

Angel: "But you're supposed to... you know what? Never mind."

Also, the same sword? Is it a Seijinn Sword made out of battlesteel? Because with a title like "Lord PROTECTOR", it doesn't sound like the original got the title via a desk job.

The Sword of the Lord Protector could also be the sword of the guy who lead the revolt aainst the dastardly oppressive king who made all the peasants eat cake.

Actually, I bet there was another planted enclave similar to Saint Whatsits in Charis that inspired said revolt and government.

One that probably went back into hiding.

Annachie wrote:The Sword of the Lord Protector could also be the sword of the guy who lead the revolt aainst the dastardly oppressive king who made all the peasants eat cake.

Actually, I bet there was another planted enclave similar to Saint Whatsits in Charis that inspired said revolt and government.

One that probably went back into hiding.

You people are so suspicious! Can't imagine where you get that from.