Mind voice dialects.

Thanks for the amazing textev Vince. Some things were obvious to me right from the start.

It is said that all intelligent creatures have an advanced language. It is what sets intelligent creatures apart from the Solarians. It is the ability to handle ideas. Even the Treecat language resemble human language in some of the similar "notions" born of the language itself. Such as "speaking" to each other.

I think Harold was hearing grammar, verbs, etc., when I speak of a 'Cat language. Although, I would suspect that grammar has its place in Treecat language as well. Language has to have structure. Grammar is structure.

At the end of the day, language is all about the communication, not the construct. Sentient beings CANNOT think without a language. Unless you know everything already, therefore don't need language. Like God?

Human language is based on the spoken word. Treecat language is based on the spoken thought. Which implies a lot more efficiency, if you consider that a single human thought can comprise a long post. And instead of body language and mannerisms to augment the communication, there is emotion. A sentient being having thought as the basic building block of their language is incredible. I can also conceive of why it could be a hindrance to learning technology.

There are profound questions remaining. Consider that computer languages are not created equal. Some are simply not up to specific tasks. Is Treecat language too specific or too limited in some manner to accomplish learning technology? Their language evolved in the wild. It had to serve a purpose of survival amongst deadly creatures.* Their language may have evolved for survival first, instead of the luxury of great scholarly thought. I don't imagine there are any Platos amongst the Treecat species. Not because of a limited intelligence, but because of necessity and a priority of life - a language evolved for other purposes. Memory Singers are their repositories, their libraries.

I'm willing to bet that coexisting with humanity is going to alter the Treecat language profoundly over time. Two-legs are the Treecats' volcano I spoke of earlier.

At any rate, a being cannot think without a language. Even in the unlikely event that he can communicate without one. He still has to think. And thinking IS NOT generic. Or all Treecats will have the exact same description of two-legs. Ridiculous for anything but a bunch of automatons. The Borg!

Without language, there can be no thought. Without language, there is no intelligence. Period.

* In some scientific circles, it has been proposed that man was once telepathic himself. It was the result of living amongst the dinosaurs. The first at the top of the food chain. Self explanatory.

Oh, before anyone mentions it. Man supposedly did not live amongst the dinosaurs.

Because. they. were. all. eaten!

It is important to note that even two-legs infuse their language with emotion - inflection, mannerisms, gestures. Body language. Higher or lower frequencies. Facial expressions. Silence.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, body language is like a Picasso.

cthia wrote:It is important to note that even two-legs infuse their language with emotion - inflection, mannerisms, gestures. Body language. Higher or lower frequencies. Facial expressions. Silence.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, body language is like a Picasso.

Surely Treecats have a body language too. A language probably discerned only by two-legs who are bonded, and probably by Dr. Arif. Definitely visible to the very astute Damien Harahap.

I wonder if Treecats share any of the body language of Terran cats. Like arching their back when they are afraid. Does a Treecat even know fear? Other than in their prey?

The notion that all intelligent beings must have a language is deeply embedded into our own culture and theory. Dolphins and whales amongst other creatures seem to agree. They'd tell us if we weren't mind blind.

Another bit of proof is in Treecat native names for each other, and especially of their two-leg mates. Textev clearly states that the other 'Cats accept each other's description of their two-leg pet. And Honor clearly states that Nimitz' name for Theisman, after Nimitz does some internal introspection of juggling language and ideas, is Seeker of Dreams. These descriptions which don't always fully translate are an individual aspect. Born from an individual's use of language.

Also, language is necessary for individuality. If it is what it is for one 'Cat, doesn't mean it is for another. The individuality of ideas that is allowed by language is necessary to the bonding process.

<Honor floats my boat. This is why>

It isn't like every other 'Cat is going to magically understand why Clean Killer flipped over Harahap. Matter of fact, they just might question his "logic" err taste in pets. LOL

It just isn't something that mankind would even consider that an intelligent species, tool making species, have no language. Every intelligent species simply must have a language. Even if they don't necessarily recognize primes.

cthia wrote:It's certainly an interesting question requiring profound thinking to conceive of it, and to settle on an answer. I don't think we know enough detail about the mechanics of treecat language to make an informed decision.

Weird Harold wrote:"Doubtful" because the Treecats don't have a language to distort into dialects. The sign language they use is a human language, and as noted that could quickly develop dialects, but the treecats didn't even understand what a language WAS for centuries.

cthia wrote:Agreed. Though "doubtful" is not an absolute. Treecats don't have a language - as we understand language. But we don't understand Treecat language enough to make a definitive decision.

Saying that Treecats don't have a language to distort into dialects may be sticking your neck out too far. It is saying that their language cannot become even more efficient. That it cannot evolve. Hard to believe it can, or will, but still. We do know that certain disastrous events can affect their language profoundly. Like the unavailability of certain chemicals, found in their own native root or in celery. And also by the example of what happened to Nimitz, which could conceivably happen naturally by some mechanism of the environment. So it isn't wholly inconceivable that a combination of things could affect their language in ways that surpass even an adoption of a dialect.

Remember, in the beginning it is proposed that mankind spoke only one language and that language was efficient until some profound God-like event separated the tongues and made us babble. I just think we should remain open to the possibility that the Treecats or some Treecat colony could experience their own Tower of Babel - however unlikely or improbable.

Treecats have "channels" of communication. These channels could become affected in some unforeseen ways, one of which we know of. The lack of a certain chemical.

At any rate, I personally remain open to the faint possibility that two completely separated Treecat populations can develop different dialects. Telempathy is still a form of communication. Communication is vulnerable to change, even without the chemical dependency experienced by the 'Cats.

Treecats will never develop "mind voice" dialects. The reasons for this are touched on in UC, but I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here because (a) further rumination would constitute spoilers from the book and (b) I have no intention of telling you everything about how 'cat telepathy works in one fell swoop.

cthia wrote:Remember, in the beginning it is proposed that mankind spoke only one language and that language was efficient until some profound God-like event separated the tongues and made us babble. I just think we should remain open to the possibility that the Treecats or some Treecat colony could experience their own Tower of Babel - however unlikely or improbable.

This is mythology, not to be taken seriously.

Honestly, I suspect they would.

As colonies develope on different planets, those treecats could develope a slightly different way of thinking, especially where such thinking specifically relates to the planet they grow up/live on.

That would be the equilivent of an accent.

Annachie wrote:Honestly, I suspect they would.

As colonies develope on different planets, those treecats could develope a slightly different way of thinking, especially where such thinking specifically relates to the planet they grow up/live on.

That would be the equilivent of an accent.

Makes two of us. RFC is god, and just like God, he'll return in a few centuries or so and find quite a few things have changed about his kids. But I'm curious about those details, so I'm not headed too far out on any limbs.

Curious the Celery Meister didn't comment on the existence of a language itself, because if he says nay, I'm walking away from the table. . .

::spills beer::

Don't drink urine anyway.

runsforcelery wrote:

cthia wrote:It's certainly an interesting question requiring profound thinking to conceive of it, and to settle on an answer. I don't think we know enough detail about the mechanics of treecat language to make an informed decision.

Weird Harold wrote:"Doubtful" because the Treecats don't have a language to distort into dialects. The sign language they use is a human language, and as noted that could quickly develop dialects, but the treecats didn't even understand what a language WAS for centuries.

cthia wrote:Agreed. Though "doubtful" is not an absolute. Treecats don't have a language - as we understand language. But we don't understand Treecat language enough to make a definitive decision.

Saying that Treecats don't have a language to distort into dialects may be sticking your neck out too far. It is saying that their language cannot become even more efficient. That it cannot evolve. Hard to believe it can, or will, but still. We do know that certain disastrous events can affect their language profoundly. Like the unavailability of certain chemicals, found in their own native root or in celery. And also by the example of what happened to Nimitz, which could conceivably happen naturally by some mechanism of the environment. So it isn't wholly inconceivable that a combination of things could affect their language in ways that surpass even an adoption of a dialect.

Remember, in the beginning it is proposed that mankind spoke only one language and that language was efficient until some profound God-like event separated the tongues and made us babble. I just think we should remain open to the possibility that the Treecats or some Treecat colony could experience their own Tower of Babel - however unlikely or improbable.

Treecats have "channels" of communication. These channels could become affected in some unforeseen ways, one of which we know of. The lack of a certain chemical.

At any rate, I personally remain open to the faint possibility that two completely separated Treecat populations can develop different dialects. Telempathy is still a form of communication. Communication is vulnerable to change, even without the chemical dependency experienced by the 'Cats.

Treecats will never develop "mind voice" dialects. The reasons for this are touched on in UC, but I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here because (a) further rumination would constitute spoilers from the book and (b) I have no intention of telling you everything about how 'cat telepathy works in one fell swoop.

Can't comment on the swoop, but if you say they have no language would be one fell.


****** *


Now, to get to that snippet without breaking me neck.

'Ouch!'

"Slow down cthia!"

cthia wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Treecats will never develop "mind voice" dialects.

Can't comment on the swoop, but if you say they have no language would be one fell.

di·a·lect
ˈdīəˌlekt/
noun
noun: dialect; plural noun: dialects

a particular form of a language that is peculiar to a specific region or social group.
"this novel is written in the dialect of Trinidad"
synonyms: regional language, local language, local speech, vernacular, patois, idiom;

IF they will never develop dialects, that implies they have no language to start from in developing dialects.