Why no Detweiler regular kids?

JohnRoth wrote:Also, I don't understand why you think that not running Oyster Bay would have given them more time to run Houdini. IIRC, the timing on the accelerated Houdini was driven by Simöes defection.

Without the attack there would have been a somewhat less receptive audience to tales of supermen with super tech plotting a centuries long conspiracy.

kzt wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:Also, I don't understand why you think that not running Oyster Bay would have given them more time to run Houdini. IIRC, the timing on the accelerated Houdini was driven by Simöes defection.

Without the attack there would have been a somewhat less receptive audience to tales of supermen with super tech plotting a centuries long conspiracy.

Yep, it wouldn't even have become another neobarbarian conspiracy theory. As they wouldn't have had cause to believe it either.

kzt wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:Also, I don't understand why you think that not running Oyster Bay would have given them more time to run Houdini. IIRC, the timing on the accelerated Houdini was driven by Simöes defection.

Without the attack there would have been a somewhat less receptive audience to tales of supermen with super tech plotting a centuries long conspiracy.

Oops, I seem to have misremembered the timeline. The accelerated Oyster Bay was planned and executed before Simöes' defection became known.

in any case, though, the Detweiller's reasoning was that Simöes' information meant that Admiral Henke would be heading for Mesa fairly quickly, so they had to get off the planet as fast as inhumanly possible. Whether or not they'd done Oyster Bay had nothing to do with the decision.

JohnRoth wrote:in any case, though, the Detweiller's reasoning was that Simöes' information meant that Admiral Henke would be heading for Mesa fairly quickly, so they had to get off the planet as fast as inhumanly possible. Whether or not they'd done Oyster Bay had nothing to do with the decision.

People are rather less than thrilled to start a huge bloody operation that might well expand into a fully blown general war based solely on fanciful tales of a conviently dead guy.

kzt wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:in any case, though, the Detweiller's reasoning was that Simöes' information meant that Admiral Henke would be heading for Mesa fairly quickly, so they had to get off the planet as fast as inhumanly possible. Whether or not they'd done Oyster Bay had nothing to do with the decision.

People are rather less than thrilled to start a huge bloody operation that might well expand into a fully blown general war based solely on fanciful tales of a conviently dead guy.

The Manties really wanted to go after MAlign (although they weren't certain of the name and assumed it was on Mesa) after Oyster Bay.

And an awful lot of things went on because of their machinations. After they messed things up for the meeting at Torch, there was a huge battle. But afterwards Honor came to try to make peace and might have succeeded.

And all the Dets had to do was spread genetic improvements. Almost all of those were legal. They got to the current point after 500 years. Had they started improvements aimed at takeovers from the start they could have done a couple per year and dominated the Solarian League. Note that Grayson and Sphynx both used genetic changes frequently.

If there are full "natural" biological children of A & E that have been placed out in just the % of Mesan population that are the non-malignment group that has now shown up in the searches being conducted by 10th fleet, then it is entirely possible that some of them (and or their children- the Detweiler clone brothers are not exactly in their early 30's) died as a result of the Houdini events that killed all those people as cover for the Houdini extractees or to eliminate people who could not be taken off planet in time.

Why? We'll, if the children were so secret, there shouldn't have been a list given to anyone that essentialy said "don't create killing events that impated this list of locations or these specific people".

Even if there were 15 other children beyond the clones raised to be Albrect's Lt's, and even if they were place (anonymously) with different families in this new front "secret" (and "benign") Mesan Alignment, how likely is it that they would be having children with each other in a remaining non-slave, non-seccie population of several tens of millions?

When I read about the "Mesan Alignment" that Henke's people were finding, the 2nd thing I thought was that this was just another vastly intricate layer for the onion designed for cover and misdirection. Which it is- it is also another way to thumb the Alignment's collective nose at Beowulf. My 1st though was this was a way to ease-out people who had not met the specific criteria for being included in the Onion but would still further the overall goals of the Detweiler Uplift. But that wasn't twisted enough for the plot so off it went to being just another massive herd of people being used by the Alignment who were ultimately expendable.

As to the part about the Clones making decision on Darius for the Beowulf habitat bombings- particularly the timing interval- of course it was emotional, didn't you read that whole section. So they set it up to 1) tie it to the Solly attack they were organizing as misdirection to 95% of the universe and 2) make it abundantly clear to Beowulf and the GA that this was NOT random missiles but specificaly planted and timed explostions. White Haven etc have it exactly right, that set of precisely timed explosions to do that much damage and loss of life is the Alignment saying:
"This was us, we are so much better than you and we will go out of our way to kill this many people because you are messing with our plans (they can't say- you caused our parents to kill themselves and others because that would expose too much) so TAKE THAT and go gnash your teeth in inefective rage because we are smarther than you are and you can't find us and we will come back anytime we want and hurt you again."

I suspect they have never thought about Karma and that the Salamander might find herself dealing with the Alignment in the future with even colder fury than what could have happened at Sol.

Brigade XO wrote:If there are full "natural" biological children of A & E that have been placed out in just the % of Mesan population that are the non-malignment group that has now shown up in the searches being conducted by 10th fleet, then it is entirely possible that some of them (and or their children- the Detweiler clone brothers are not exactly in their early 30's) died as a result of the Houdini events that killed all those people as cover for the Houdini extractees or to eliminate people who could not be taken off planet in time.

Why? We'll, if the children were so secret, there shouldn't have been a list given to anyone that essentialy said "don't create killing events that impated this list of locations or these specific people".

Even if there were 15 other children beyond the clones raised to be Albrect's Lt's, and even if they were place (anonymously) with different families in this new front "secret" (and "benign") Mesan Alignment, how likely is it that they would be having children with each other in a remaining non-slave, non-seccie population of several tens of millions?

When I read about the "Mesan Alignment" that Henke's people were finding, the 2nd thing I thought was that this was just another vastly intricate layer for the onion designed for cover and misdirection. Which it is- it is also another way to thumb the Alignment's collective nose at Beowulf. My 1st though was this was a way to ease-out people who had not met the specific criteria for being included in the Onion but would still further the overall goals of the Detweiler Uplift. But that wasn't twisted enough for the plot so off it went to being just another massive herd of people being used by the Alignment who were ultimately expendable.

As to the part about the Clones making decision on Darius for the Beowulf habitat bombings- particularly the timing interval- of course it was emotional, didn't you read that whole section. So they set it up to 1) tie it to the Solly attack they were organizing as misdirection to 95% of the universe and 2) make it abundantly clear to Beowulf and the GA that this was NOT random missiles but specificaly planted and timed explostions. White Haven etc have it exactly right, that set of precisely timed explosions to do that much damage and loss of life is the Alignment saying:
"This was us, we are so much better than you and we will go out of our way to kill this many people because you are messing with our plans (they can't say- you caused our parents to kill themselves and others because that would expose too much) so TAKE THAT and go gnash your teeth in inefective rage because we are smarther than you are and you can't find us and we will come back anytime we want and hurt you again."

I suspect they have never thought about Karma and that the Salamander might find herself dealing with the Alignment in the future with even colder fury than what could have happened at Sol.

* * * This thread doesn't have a spoiler warning * * *

The outer layer of the Mesan Alignment was mentioned in ToF and CoG. The "onion" is simply the members of that layer that have been vetted and accepted for work on the secret parts of the plan. That Henke's investigators would find them is fairly obvious - there are, after all, around a million of them, most of whom are not only not part of the "onion," but have no idea it exists.

They are not any kind of blind or misdirection. They're the prototype of the "uplifted" Mesan Alpha, Beta and Gamma lines, and they are, for the most part, quite well aware of that.

JohnRoth wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:If there are full "natural" biological children of A & E that have been placed out in just the % of Mesan population that are the non-malignment group that has now shown up in the searches being conducted by 10th fleet, then it is entirely possible that some of them (and or their children- the Detweiler clone brothers are not exactly in their early 30's) died as a result of the Houdini events that killed all those people as cover for the Houdini extractees or to eliminate people who could not be taken off planet in time.

Why? We'll, if the children were so secret, there shouldn't have been a list given to anyone that essentialy said "don't create killing events that impated this list of locations or these specific people".

Even if there were 15 other children beyond the clones raised to be Albrect's Lt's, and even if they were place (anonymously) with different families in this new front "secret" (and "benign") Mesan Alignment, how likely is it that they would be having children with each other in a remaining non-slave, non-seccie population of several tens of millions?

When I read about the "Mesan Alignment" that Henke's people were finding, the 2nd thing I thought was that this was just another vastly intricate layer for the onion designed for cover and misdirection. Which it is- it is also another way to thumb the Alignment's collective nose at Beowulf. My 1st though was this was a way to ease-out people who had not met the specific criteria for being included in the Onion but would still further the overall goals of the Detweiler Uplift. But that wasn't twisted enough for the plot so off it went to being just another massive herd of people being used by the Alignment who were ultimately expendable.

As to the part about the Clones making decision on Darius for the Beowulf habitat bombings- particularly the timing interval- of course it was emotional, didn't you read that whole section. So they set it up to 1) tie it to the Solly attack they were organizing as misdirection to 95% of the universe and 2) make it abundantly clear to Beowulf and the GA that this was NOT random missiles but specificaly planted and timed explostions. White Haven etc have it exactly right, that set of precisely timed explosions to do that much damage and loss of life is the Alignment saying:
"This was us, we are so much better than you and we will go out of our way to kill this many people because you are messing with our plans (they can't say- you caused our parents to kill themselves and others because that would expose too much) so TAKE THAT and go gnash your teeth in inefective rage because we are smarther than you are and you can't find us and we will come back anytime we want and hurt you again."

I suspect they have never thought about Karma and that the Salamander might find herself dealing with the Alignment in the future with even colder fury than what could have happened at Sol.

* * * This thread doesn't have a spoiler warning * * *

The outer layer of the Mesan Alignment was mentioned in ToF and CoG. The "onion" is simply the members of that layer that have been vetted and accepted for work on the secret parts of the plan. That Henke's investigators would find them is fairly obvious - there are, after all, around a million of them, most of whom are not only not part of the "onion," but have no idea it exists.

They are not any kind of blind or misdirection. They're the prototype of the "uplifted" Mesan Alpha, Beta and Gamma lines, and they are, for the most part, quite well aware of that.

We could still see "natural" meaning non clone Detweilers on Darius. Could be a nice story twist. The clones move in and find out there is a real sibling rivalry.

ldwechsler wrote:We could still see "natural" meaning non clone Detweilers on Darius. Could be a nice story twist. The clones move in and find out there is a real sibling rivalry.

I can just hear the new meme, in a deep, deep voice:
"You are not my father."