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Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?

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Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by Andor   » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:32 pm

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I personally think Wencit is several hundred years past due for a royal reaming about his hypocrisy.

He mentions that if you have the Wizard talent it's impossible to not use it.

He also mentions that the 'black' path is quick and easy but the 'white' path requires dedication and training.

Therefore he spends his time riding around the country blasting his fellow wizards to dust for following the black path.

Which they have no choice but to follow because they can find no training in the white path.

Which is because the only white wizard on the northern continent would rather spend his days blasting them, rather than training them.

*epic facepalm*

Yes, fine, he feels guilty about the evil wizardry managed to do in the old world. However deciding that you're going to single handedly eradicate the wizard gene from the northern population by way extirpating your guilt is not a good plan.

Someday the black wizards are going to find their way north. And Wencit is not going to hold them off by himself. Nor are the mages. If someone doesn't slap him with the cold wet salmon of reality, he is going to doom the world.
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by WiseMan999   » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:14 pm

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You may have a point. Then again, he may be the most powerful wizard ever, but he can't perform miracles. How is he supposed to both train new wizrds in an art that requires extreme dedication and mental discipline and fight off the Carnadosans at the same time?

Of course, he could have started straight away when they reached Norfressa, and before the Carnadosans had recovered from his slaughter of pretty much all their leadership after the retreat. But then you run into the problem of people's attitudes. People do not like wizards, rather understandably after some of them plunged an entire continent into a war that almost enslaved all of them. He may be Wencit of Rum, and people would respect that. This may however, not have stretched so far as to allow him to train yet more wizards. Since at that time he was helping the fledgling countries in Norfressa get back on their feet after the flight from Kontovar, he again had more pressing commitments. I don't think that would have been helped if he started to train more "evil mages".

Just thoughts off the top of my head though, please point out any inconsistencies.
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by Michael Everett   » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:37 pm

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I think the situation is more... intriguing.

It has been said that the only thing that could oppose wizardry pre-Fall was more wizardry. the situation has now changed. We have...

1) The Magi, trained to stand against Dark Wizardry. One-on-one, they don't stand a chance, but they are trained to work together, merge their powers and use techniques that the Wizards cannot hope to counter.

2) The Hradani. When they use the Rage, it provides them with protection against magic that even an Adept would find hard to compensate for. Now that the rage has developed from Red to White, they can summon and use it at will, thus turning them into superior anti-Wizard combatants.

3) The Order of Tomanak. It now has a Hradani champion, loads of Hradani members and will soon gain more champions from its Hradani recruits. As the Hradani start to be deployed in the various chapter houses, their anti-Wizard skills will prove quite useful. i admit that this point is a continuation of Point 2, but even so...

I think that Wencit may soon start to train new Wizards, but said wizard-trainees will only be deployed as part of a group of 3, with the other 2 members of each "squad" being a Hradani (from Tomonak's Order) and a Magi with telepathic skills, whose main jobs are to act as a communication link and to ensure that the Wizard he or she is assigned to is not slipping to the Dark. After all, we now have 2 new methods of enforcing the Code that Wencit follows. It ain't up to just him no more...

Awaiting comments.
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by Paks   » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:23 pm

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First - Wencit is NOT a White Wizard and thus can't teach them White Wizardry. He is a Wild Mage. He is the most rare of all wizards.

Second - Black Wizardry and White Wizardry is a CHOICE - you can choose NOT to inflict Pain and Cruelty. You don't have to CHOOSE to kill innocent people.
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by derrell   » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:33 am

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I've wondered about this as well. The fact that there are black wizards for Wencit to fry means that there are still people being born with the talent. That doesn't automatically make them evil. I would think that there would be people out there somewhere that are struggling with it maybe trying desperately to hide the fact because of the animosity that everyone feels towards wizards.

Even if Wencit is a wild wizard that just means that he can control the energy in everything easily it doesn't seem like that would mean that he couldn't teach more mundane methods of control to others. He would have to be familiar with those other methods or he couldn't have worked with other wizards effectively before the fall.

It also might be that the gods have a hand in things as well. That could explain why no one who would be inclined to make the choices that would lead to being a white wizard are being born. Perhaps Semkirk (think thats the right god) is concentrating on the mages and preventing the wizard powers. Though that seems like it would be too much direct interference.

In the end it just may be a case of handwavium albeit an annoying one.
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by biochem   » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:11 am

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Possibly they get sent for Magi training. The symptoms probably look the similar. Of course when they get to the academy, the instructers are left to wonder why the training doesn't seem to be very effective...
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by Jaxomfaux   » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:08 pm

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my opinion.

hard to train a guy how to be a white wizard when he's evil. notice nobody ever asks Wencit to train them? maybe it's as simple as that. I highly doubt if some wizard wanna-be walked up to Wencit and said "help me understand this so i don't get capped" he'd say "No, and since your going dark eventually anyways...." shazzam! I see no hypocrisy there, just a gross oversimplification of the facts. I could totally see Wencit riding around with a padawan.

part 2 is I'm pretty flipping sure if the dark gods are specifically targeting mages they could target wizards just as easily and go out of their way to corrupt them as fast as possible.

And yes, Wencit IS a white mage (although a specialized one) and has all the knowledge needed to train another... as Brandark will soon find out :P but there is only so much one man can do at one time and Wencits day planner is pretty full it seems.
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:37 am

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Paks wrote:First - Wencit is NOT a White Wizard and thus can't teach them White Wizardry. He is a Wild Mage. He is the most rare of all wizards.

Second - Black Wizardry and White Wizardry is a CHOICE - you can choose NOT to inflict Pain and Cruelty. You don't have to CHOOSE to kill innocent people.



Its not that easy or clear cut. Black wizards are simply wizards that do not restrict themselves to the limitations set by Gwynnyth and her husband (forget his name). Carnadosa as I understand her mentality is agnostic to the pain and suffering of others. Her only interest is in the magic held in the life force of those others. When she needs that force, acquiring that force becomes a question of efficiency not morality.

Since magic energy shaped into the life force of living beings is easier to manipulate than raw energy held in rocks, well that's the most effecient source to seek, isn't it? A wizard can do a heck of a lot more with that shaped energy than the same amount of unshaped energy. White wizards can use that same source as Blacks do, BTW. They can employ the same cruel techniques that cause pain and death, just as Blacks do. The difference is that the Strictures require permission from the victim...er donor of the magic energy.

A suitibly nasty sadist White Wizard can perform every single black spell or technique with impunity if he finds enough leverage to encourage his victims to agree willingly and of free will to submit to them. This SoB would enjoy the process and still be White as snow. A Carnadosan could do the same spells and NOT get permission and actually detest the process but still be Black. The strictures aren't a moral measure but a legal one.

So, being black isn't about cruelty per se, it is about making EVERYTHING required for their art more important than anything else, even morality. The Strictures aren't about moral distinctions, but a legal code that deliniates the rights and responsibilities of both the week and the powerful. Any moral component is secondary or at most a guiding principle.
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:53 am

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Michael Everett wrote:I think the situation is more... intriguing.

It has been said that the only thing that could oppose wizardry pre-Fall was more wizardry. the situation has now changed. We have...

1) The Magi, trained to stand against Dark Wizardry. One-on-one, they don't stand a chance, but they are trained to work together, merge their powers and use techniques that the Wizards cannot hope to counter.

2) The Hradani. When they use the Rage, it provides them with protection against magic that even an Adept would find hard to compensate for. Now that the rage has developed from Red to White, they can summon and use it at will, thus turning them into superior anti-Wizard combatants.

3) The Order of Tomanak. It now has a Hradani champion, loads of Hradani members and will soon gain more champions from its Hradani recruits. As the Hradani start to be deployed in the various chapter houses, their anti-Wizard skills will prove quite useful. i admit that this point is a continuation of Point 2, but even so...

I think that Wencit may soon start to train new Wizards, but said wizard-trainees will only be deployed as part of a group of 3, with the other 2 members of each "squad" being a Hradani (from Tomonak's Order) and a Magi with telepathic skills, whose main jobs are to act as a communication link and to ensure that the Wizard he or she is assigned to is not slipping to the Dark. After all, we now have 2 new methods of enforcing the Code that Wencit follows. It ain't up to just him no more...

Awaiting comments.


Astute as usuall, Mr. Everett. I would also add that the strictures were drawn up by wizards. They did not want to have a serious counter to their power. I suppose this was more a blind spot than anything intentional. The current situation is one where wizards are NOT in power. Non-wizards find this state of affairs something to maintain.

So, while there may well have been other sources to counter the wizards power and enforce the Code back in the day, the wizard-rulers would not have employed them for a host of possible reasons. Some of those may even be legitimate. The key to the Code was that it relyed on wizards to enforce it on other wizards, hence reinforce their own place of power in society.

Watchmen watching watchmen did not work then, just as it rarely does.
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Re: Is anyone ever going to call BS on Wencit?
Post by Rook13   » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:18 am

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I would like to note that Wencit does not in fact go around "offing" wizards. When he encounters a black wizard, he makes a judgement on whether they have violated the Strictures, based on his own observations of their actions. Note in Sword Brother that instead of just blasting Tremala, he offers her a duel. "As thou hast chosen, so shalt thou answer." Even in judgement, he allows them more choice than they give their victims. I think if a young wizard were to beg for a chance to redeem himself, Wencit might just give it to him.
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