The Soul of Haven

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
The committee killed 10's of millions in the civilian uprisings in Neuvo Paris in addition to the million + dead from the Octagon bombing. Not counting the 10's of millions simply disappeared, and other millions killed in public riots and interventions. The number killed by the committee is insane even before considering the officer purges, and the Legislaturalist purges in general, not to mention the deeper losses taken by the navy after it purged the officer corp. I don't know if the Republic could even afford to open the door to that idea.

I know! No way anyone could afford that!

Holy Batman Robin! I had no earthly idea the butcher bull was that insane. That's beyond insane. I knew there were many killed. But that's more than the entire number killed accumulatively in all three navies put together, from the beginning of OBS. Make that from Edward Saganami's first kill! No?

Which now makes me angry at Theisman and Company! What took them so long to revolt? I'm ashamed of them right now. Didn't they have any balls at all? At least Esther acted first! How could anyone stand idly by and let that many die before acting much sooner? Why didn't some conscientious officer just plain old execute Saint Just long before that many perished? That's enough blood shed to turn the whole Nile River red.

A bunch of damn pansies!

roseandheather wrote:...really? You're really going to say shit like this when you know I'm on this board?

BAD puppy. No biscuit!

What, precisely, would Theisman have accomplished by acting earlier? The only reason he was able to act in the first place is because McQueen's coup failed and Saint-Just handed him Capital Fleet! All he would've managed would've been to get himself disappeared or worse. To paraphrase his dear friend and compatriot - "standing up defiantly for his principles would have been noble and gallant... and unforgivably stupid. It had been his responsibility to stay alive to fight for those principles, however clandestinely..."

Theisman was, by pure luck or God's own hand, placed in the perfect position at the perfect time. Before then the Committee had been too strong; it was only after Pierre's death and McQueen's attempted coup that it began to falter. Saint-Just's death any earlier would've accomplished nothing but to provide more fodder for the propaganda machine and turned him into a martyr. But when Theisman was given Capital Fleet - and Amanda Graveson's notes - his position became unassailable. He controlled Haven's high orbitals now, and nothing could touch him because of that. From an even slightly weaker position, his coup too would have failed, and with it Haven's last chance at salvation.

Now go back to your crate. You're officially in the doghouse.

Until I can gather myself from the pain of being exiled to a cage, without so much as a biscuit.

--Snipping--

Dauntless wrote:no question Mcqueen was good at being military...

Which is the big difference between McQueen and Theisman, aka the Leveler event where McQueen used the Navy against civilians. I'd like to think our dear Thomas would have told a superior officer what to put up their anal orifice if he'd been ordered to do the same thing. Even Amos Parnell admitted that knowing the corruption, he went along with the plan anyway. In reality, Kevin Usher and company -- including Prichart, etc. were building the foundation for a return to justice, they simply didn't have the power base which Rob, Oscar, and co. created when they decapitated the navy leadership AND the legislaturalists at the same time. McQueen would have been the wrong answer, Alfredo Yu's tutored historian and seasoned battle commander Theisman was the RIGHT answer. But he also knew that good generals (or admirals) make bad republicans, because they have the pulsar in their pocket at all times.

At least that's what W.E.B. DuHavel tells us, no?... and methinks the good professor might be RFC in disquise.

SharkHunter wrote:--Snipping--

Dauntless wrote:no question Mcqueen was good at being military...

Which is the big difference between McQueen and Theisman, aka the Leveler event where McQueen used the Navy against civilians. I'd like to think our dear Thomas would have told a superior officer what to put up their anal orifice if he'd been ordered to do the same thing. Even Amos Parnell admitted that knowing the corruption, he went along with the plan anyway. In reality, Kevin Usher and company -- including Prichart, etc. were building the foundation for a return to justice, they simply didn't have the power base which Rob, Oscar, and co. created when they decapitated the navy leadership AND the legislaturalists at the same time. McQueen would have been the wrong answer, Alfredo Yu's tutored historian and seasoned battle commander Theisman was the RIGHT answer. But he also knew that good generals (or admirals) make bad republicans, because they have the pulsar in their pocket at all times.

At least that's what W.E.B. DuHavel tells us, no?... and methinks the good professor might be RFC in disquise.

I believe that the good professor is Eric Flint in disguise (not that RFC disagrees with him).

SharkHunter wrote:--Snipping--

Dauntless wrote:no question Mcqueen was good at being military...

Which is the big difference between McQueen and Theisman, aka the Leveler event where McQueen used the Navy against civilians. I'd like to think our dear Thomas would have told a superior officer what to put up their anal orifice if he'd been ordered to do the same thing. Even Amos Parnell admitted that knowing the corruption, he went along with the plan anyway. In reality, Kevin Usher and company -- including Prichart, etc. were building the foundation for a return to justice, they simply didn't have the power base which Rob, Oscar, and co. created when they decapitated the navy leadership AND the legislaturalists at the same time. McQueen would have been the wrong answer, Alfredo Yu's tutored historian and seasoned battle commander Theisman was the RIGHT answer. But he also knew that good generals (or admirals) make bad republicans, because they have the pulsar in their pocket at all times.

At least that's what W.E.B. DuHavel tells us, no?... and methinks the good professor might be RFC in disquise.

Given what the Levelers were after I believe Theisman would have intervened as well. I find it unlikely he'd have intervened in the same fashion as McQueen, but given the Leveler's political platform he wouldn't have had much choice.

What, pray tell, do you think that a hereditary President For Life is, exactly, if not a monarch?

As any late-1st century Roman Senator would tell you, the trappings of republicanism do not a Republic make, nor does the elimination of the current tyrant by those seeking to restore it automatically bring an end to monarchy.

If pressed - it wasn't a very safe thing to talk about - he'd have added that eliminating the current tyrant _does_ open the door to a slew of military gents who all think they'd look good in purple. And every one of them has a go at it from their individual power bases. Some will just snip off a chunk for themselves, some go for the gusto. First century Rome was lucky: the civil wars [note the plural] lasted little more than a year and the lad who came out on top was actually rather competent. But, he was no sort of republican. When the next go round started a century later, it didn't work out nearly so well. It took a century for anybody to climb convincingly to the top and by then civil war had become the national sport in the West [actually, they were rather partial to it in the eastern Empire too], fatally weakening it and paving the way for what is fancifully known as the Dark Ages. By that time, there _were_ no republicans even though the trappings of the Republic were alive and well.

The attentive reader - if any - will have noticed that the beginning of this scenario is exactly what happened when the CPS was finally taken down. It _appears_ to have short-circuited because the guy on top _was_ some sort of republican, and, more importantly, the next two best contenders were on his side. However, as Eloise has already brought to our attention, the jury is in fact still out on the stability of the Republic and not expected to return for a decade or two.

There are two things to remember when considering what might have happened had McQueen come out on top of her little encounter with St Just, setting aside all consideration of her character [for which, BTW, I see no evidence at all to suggest that the rosy view is the better justified]. First, good as she was, there were 2 or 3 Peep admirals who were probably better, and with whom broad chunks of the Navy would have been a good deal happier. Once those civil wars started, there's good reason to think that McQueen would _not_ have triumphed - and better to think that they'd have done even more damage to the PRH than the 3rd century did to Rome. More importantly, everyone seems to be forgetting that that insurrection was not happening in isolation. If St Just had gone down, the Duke of Cromarty would still be Prime Minister of Manticore and Esther McQueen would not, assuming she was still alive, be in control of the Haven System or any significant portion of the PRH. Operation Buttercup would have been pressed home, ending with the surrender or destruction of the PRN and, under the conditions obtaining, very likely the dismantling of the Republic.

cthia wrote:< snip >

Haven, on the other hand, would have found the idea of a monarchy appalling in the memory of their Old Republic and in the midst of their throws of death. Not to mention the political implications it would have sent, trying to adopt the government of its long-time enemy. Someone would have accused McQueen of treason. Certainly if she had made that same voyage to Manticore in Haven One and returned as an Empress.

I don't think anyone wanted a different government other than the Old Republic, certainly not in light of RFC's posts, just a repaired one. Trying to force a Monarchy on their heads, certainly at that juncture while in the midst of a war, would have been ill-advised.

I'm simply not ready to vote so quickly for it to have been a given, to be doomed to failure. And I'm certainly not ready to vote McQueen as someone who would have proved to be unhealthy for the soul of Haven.*
< snip >

Louis R wrote:However, as Eloise has already brought to our attention, the jury is in fact still out on the stability of the Republic and not expected to return for a decade or two.

Which, by the way, is why the RMN's current "We'll give you all of our most advanced tech, and all our R&D too" relationship with the RHN has potential for real disaster.

Louis R wrote:First, good as she was, there were 2 or 3 Peep admirals who were probably better, and with whom broad chunks of the Navy would have been a good deal happier.

Not really. Theisman would have either been recruited by McQueen or dead (since he was en route to the capital, and didn't have his fleet with him), and Tourville and Giscard were already so deep into McQueen's camp that St. Just was intending to eliminate them with McQueen. It would have taken some time for either to convince anyone otherwise, and there's no way they'd even try while the war was still going on.

It's probably more interesting to figure out if she could survive as Haven's head of state through a Manticoran occupation. She didn't know about Hassan (and likely would not have approved it), and Haven had no way to defeat 8th Fleet, so she would have had to surrender to the Manticoran Alliance shortly at which point Hamish Alexander would be the actual ruler of Haven.

--snipping--

drothgery wrote:It's probably more interesting to figure out if she could survive as Haven's head of state through a Manticoran occupation. She didn't know about Hassan (and likely would not have approved it), and Haven had no way to defeat 8th Fleet, so she would have had to surrender to the Manticoran Alliance shortly at which point Hamish Alexander would be the actual ruler of Haven.

Very good point--> and an "Honorverse direction" that probably precludes Oyster Bay at least until later in the calendar -- because Albrecht & Co. launched it early AFTER Beatrice took out something like 2/3 of the RMN wall of Battle, rather than waiting for the LennyDets to be completed. If Eighth Fleet captures Haven in Buttercup, Foraker & company out at Bolthole also surrender to the RMN... and probably ends up working with Hemphill a bit later on when a good civilian government (which can still be Pritchart and Theisman driven) takes hold. Plus Pritchart gets to keep Giscard alive as well, which I am sure woulda made RoseAndHeather happy, no?

Thoughts?

Question?

What's the text evidence for Tourville and Giscard being deep in McQueen's camp?

IMO St Just wanted them dead because they were dangerous. IE It didn't matter if they supported McQueen or not. They wouldn't (in his mind) support him.

drothgery wrote:

Louis R wrote:First, good as she was, there were 2 or 3 Peep admirals who were probably better, and with whom broad chunks of the Navy would have been a good deal happier.

Not really. Theisman would have either been recruited by McQueen or dead (since he was en route to the capital, and didn't have his fleet with him), and Tourville and Giscard were already so deep into McQueen's camp that St. Just was intending to eliminate them with McQueen. It would have taken some time for either to convince anyone otherwise, and there's no way they'd even try while the war was still going on.

It's probably more interesting to figure out if she could survive as Haven's head of state through a Manticoran occupation. She didn't know about Hassan (and likely would not have approved it), and Haven had no way to defeat 8th Fleet, so she would have had to surrender to the Manticoran Alliance shortly at which point Hamish Alexander would be the actual ruler of Haven.

in Ecohes of Honor there was a papragraph or so where Giscard and Tourville, noted how much she had done to improve the navy's position and set the manties back and despite the fact they didn't really trust her they couldn't help being moved by her charisma.

that is i believe as close as they came to being in her camp, and i agree completely that STJ ordered them eliminated simply because they were too good and too likely to oppose him. whereas he though Theisman could be controlled or at convinced to deal with external enemies before looking to do anything against St Just.