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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Annachie   » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:39 pm

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From memory the short commings of the Roland were amunition capacity and lack of excess persons.

Had trouble in a sustained engagement, and with S&R/boarding operations.

The former not such a problem in peacetime, the latter probably the greater problem as it's more likely to come up.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by kzt   » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:48 pm

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drothgery wrote:LACs are another story, for a lot of reasons.

Like reactors that run on plot.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by kzt   » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:55 pm

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drothgery wrote:The logic of practical smaller warships in first-rate Honorverse navies is normally "fast enough to outrun anything that can destroy them and able to go toe to toe with a peer".

The real logic is that a 8 million ton SD(P) can't be in the forty places that forty 200K ships can be. Since you normally have more missions that you have ships for you are already prioritizing. If all you have are your biggest ships than a whole lot of missions are going to get left undone and quite possibly during that process you will scatter your core firepower to the point where you are highly vulnerable to someone with, in theory, a significantly inferior navy.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:48 pm

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Annachie wrote:From memory the short commings of the Roland were amunition capacity and lack of excess persons.


There is also the lack of ammunition cross-feed and the ganged launchers that are perceived problems. A single hit to either end of a Roland halves it's ammunition capacity and it's broadside size.

To Sigs' earlier question, I'd bet on an Avalon in a one-on-one fight...

The Avalon's ERM single drive missiles have nearly as much powered range as a Mk-16G and an Avalon has sufficient point defense and counter-missile capacity for a single Roland to shoot itself dry without taking any (or very little) damage. Then it has the range advantage and sufficient speed to keep the Roland in range until it's destroyed.

Finally, I've made the point before that modern r/w destroyers don't have 10 or 18 inch guns, they have four or five inch guns. The Roland is the equivalent of an Arley Burke with a couple of 14" Dreadnought barbets fixed fore and aft.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by SharkHunter   » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:40 am

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--snipping
Weird Harold wrote:To Sigs' earlier question, I'd bet on an Avalon in a one-on-one fight...

While nothing that says that any tractor'd pods for an Avalon wouldn't be loaded with Mk16-Gs, without pods, the Roland DD wins every time. The Avalon single drive missiles have NOWHERE near the range of the Mk16 used wisely, i.e. the Avalon would never be able to range on the Roland enough to offset that problem. I don't see that happening.

Were it not so, the RMN Admiralty would have been sending Avalons to 10th fleet, not squadrons of Rolands. Plot-wise, discounting pods, let's say that Zavala goes into battle with Avalons instead of Rolands. He now has to get twice as close to the 4 Solarian battlecruiser(s) before launching his stacked salvos. The SLN missle range gets longer because they are accelerating for twice as long, etc. Much higher risk, no?

Thoughts?
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:15 am

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generally speaking a DD or CL is not expected to fight a CA let alone anything bigger and ERMs, which I will remind you Rozak used to shred a dozen BCs, are more then capable of dealing with pirates or rouge FF which are the expected enemy short term.

nobody but the GA knows how to build proper DDMs and the avalon's ERMs are a match for catahprat range and more powerful as well. with the marines and extra staff they are more flexible then a roland.

Gold Peak got rolands because they were expecting they might have to fight either SL or Messa mercs and the roland is the better war fighter.

if they had actually been thinking of integration and general patrol like silesa then Avalons or older DDs like what were fist sent to the quadrant would have been used.

post UH:

so short, short term i.e 2 years. then yes ripping out the flag deck and maybe an energy weapon from the broadside will likely free up enough room for a squad/2 of marines.

short term i.e. 5 years, Avalon and wolfhounds are the best option for what the navy faces. remember the "war" is over and they will be looking to cut costs. in everything bar Missile range/power and staffing levels the Avalon outperforms the roland for the general purpose duties the navy faces.

long term? well RFC has said more then once when someone has speculated about a mk 16 CL is that DDs and CL have different jobs and the avalon does it job very well.

exactly how light combatants will look longer term i.e 10 to 20 years, is something RFC is being very quiet about, despite repeated requests to at least outline how he pictures things are going to change.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:05 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:To Sigs' earlier question, I'd bet on an Avalon in a one-on-one fight...

While nothing that says that any tractor'd pods for an Avalon wouldn't be loaded with Mk16-Gs, without pods, the Roland DD wins every time.


The question was re: one-on-one. Zavala used four Rolands to destroy the FF BCs. Those were also SLN BCs with maybe a tenth the anti-missile capability of an Avalon (or Roland.)

An Avalon and Roland are probably pretty evenly matched except for magazine capacity. The Avalon can afford more pen-aids in each salvo and can withstand a single Roland's maximum double salvo until the Roland runs dry.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:48 pm

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ywing14 wrote:
What specific short come is that? Ammo is always going to be an issue in smaller ships.
It may always be an issue but adding a little more ammunition will mitigate the biggest part of the problem.



It was the issue with BC(P)s as well.
It's an issue with SD(P)'s as well, no-one has enough ammunition...ever. There is difference between thinking you don't have enough ammunition and being dangerously low for a warship, increasing it even by 25% would go a long way to mitigating the problem.


Adding tonnage and redesigning the Roland. You mind as well design a brand new ship at that point. The short comings of the Roland are manageable and really not all that significant given it's advantages.
But now that the GA has some breathing space why not redding and upgrade the Roland? Its one thing being in the middle of a shooting war and not having the time or resources to redesign and upgrade a ship class, but when you have the time to redesign the ships why not take advantage? The GA will likely not be producing a Roland for a few months to a year, take that time to negate the shortcomings.

And as for designing a new ship? So what call it whatever you want but if it eliminates the shortcomings of the Roland who cares? Wether its a DD Roland Class or the CL X class who cares as long as you have a functioning ship with as few faults as you can manage.



I can get on board with removing the flag bridge and either turning it into missile storage or marine space for a squad or 2. But adding tonnage doesn't make sense to me. throw in another 100-150 and make a light cruiser.[/quote]If we are going down the road might as well add 250k and make it a Sag C...
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:54 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Annachie wrote:From memory the short commings of the Roland were amunition capacity and lack of excess persons.


There is also the lack of ammunition cross-feed and the ganged launchers that are perceived problems. A single hit to either end of a Roland halves it's ammunition capacity and it's broadside size.

To Sigs' earlier question, I'd bet on an Avalon in a one-on-one fight...

The Avalon's ERM single drive missiles have nearly as much powered range as a Mk-16G and an Avalon has sufficient point defense and counter-missile capacity for a single Roland to shoot itself dry without taking any (or very little) damage. Then it has the range advantage and sufficient speed to keep the Roland in range until it's destroyed.
It might be just me but I think the Avalon has a lower acceleration than the Roland...

And how much is nearly as much? So if the Missiles that the Avalon is carrying have the same range as the missiles the Roland is carrying why on earth does the RMN insist on having those missiles in their CA's and BC's? If they don't have a distinct range advantage what do they have that justifies their increased size?
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:57 pm

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Dauntless wrote:short term i.e. 5 years, Avalon and wolfhounds are the best option for what the navy faces. remember the "war" is over and they will be looking to cut costs. in everything bar Missile range/power and staffing levels the Avalon outperforms the roland for the general purpose duties the navy faces.

The Avalon outperforms the Roland in everything but war fighting which happens to be the most important job of a warship. Building ships based on perfecting peacetime duties while ignoring their wartime missions is asking for trouble... and a lot of it.
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