The Soul of Haven

to get anywhere in legalist Haven you had to be a leaglist. 95% of whom were killed by the CPS.

so most of MA agents were likely killed then. the rest in the subsequent purges by mcqeen and St Just.

if they survived all that then the likely fell afoul of Eloise efforts to return Haven to what it should have been.

cthia wrote:The reestablished Republic would do well for the soul of Haven if it paid reparations to the slain families of officers during the reign of the Committee of the Public's Unsafety. Many families and livelihoods were destroyed who are still trying to claw their way back.

The committee killed 10's of millions in the civilian uprisings in Neuvo Paris in addition to the million + dead from the Octagon bombing. Not counting the 10's of millions simply disappeared, and other millions killed in public riots and interventions. The number killed by the committee is insane even before considering the officer purges, and the Legislaturalist purges in general, not to mention the deeper losses taken by the navy after it purged the officer corp. I don't know if the Republic could even afford to open the door to that idea.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:The reestablished Republic would do well for the soul of Haven if it paid reparations to the slain families of officers during the reign of the Committee of the Public's Unsafety. Many families and livelihoods were destroyed who are still trying to claw their way back.

The committee killed 10's of millions in the civilian uprisings in Neuvo Paris in addition to the million + dead from the Octagon bombing. Not counting the 10's of millions simply disappeared, and other millions killed in public riots and interventions. The number killed by the committee is insane even before considering the officer purges, and the Legislaturalist purges in general, not to mention the deeper losses taken by the navy after it purged the officer corp. I don't know if the Republic could even afford to open the door to that idea.

I know! No way anyone could afford that!

Holy Batman Robin! I had no earthly idea the butcher bull was that insane. That's beyond insane. I knew there were many killed. But that's more than the entire number killed accumulatively in all three navies put together, from the beginning of OBS. Make that from Edward Saganami's first kill! No?

Which now makes me angry at Theisman and Company! What took them so long to revolt? I'm ashamed of them right now. Didn't they have any balls at all? At least Esther acted first! How could anyone stand idly by and let that many die before acting much sooner? Why didn't some conscientious officer just plain old execute Saint Just long before that many perished? That's enough blood shed to turn the whole Nile River red.

A bunch of damn pansies!

I'm not sure I even blame Saint-Just and Pierre anymore. At least for the officer deaths. They were just a bunch of phucking sheep waiting to be sheared!

"Baaaaa baaaaa baaaaaa."


I'm fuming!

Is there anything worse than a holocaust? That is!

Dammit, that might give the heartless MA a run for their money.

I don't think what Pierre and Saint Just did in the beginning, specifically over throwing the legislaturists was wrong. Even the way they did it was impressive. But once they were a prisoner of the mob they went down a bad path. The only other good thing they did was the initial economic reforms.

for the first couple of years a lot of the navy was dying!

it wasn't until things stabilised on the war front that they could persuade the mob that executing everyone who failed (and their family of course) was a BAD thing.

so that take us to the start of Book 6 several years into the first war. add to that that Pierre had landed the blame for the harris assassination on the NAVY meant that 95% of navy officers wanted to stay as far away from politics as they could.

to be honest it was only McQueen actions during the levler revolt that saved her dying earlier. Stopping white haven cold was good, a little too good. Saving the committee meant they couldn't turn around and shoot her, that would have looked very bad, even to the bloodthirsty mob. otherwise they would have given her an impossible mission and either cheered when her ship was destroyed or shot her for failing.

heck warner castlet barely escaped execution and only because the CPS was lead to believe by his commissioner that he failed by following orders and having bad luck to find his orders had sent him to the defence of a manty Q-ship.

IIRC David Weber has said that Haven had always been (in his mind) a US gone wrong.

Yes, he played with the "French Revolution" thing but that wasn't his "vision of Haven".

Of course, he had "fun" with us by having us using the French Revolution thing in trying to predict "what will happen next".

IMO he "created" McQueen to give us a Napoleon figure while the "real" Napoleon was Theisman.

ldwechsler wrote:
It is pretty clear that years ago, RFC was still hung up on the Brit/French Revolution paradigm. That has changed.

That's why the salvation of Haven's soul moved me so, Drak. I look at the current mobs out to (figuratively) lynch folks for simply disagreeing with them and I see the Periacard Constitution and our own withering.

DrakBibliophile wrote:IIRC David Weber has said that Haven had always been (in his mind) a US gone wrong.

Yes, he played with the "French Revolution" thing but that wasn't his "vision of Haven".

Of course, he had "fun" with us by having us using the French Revolution thing in trying to predict "what will happen next".

IMO he "created" McQueen to give us a Napoleon figure while the "real" Napoleon was Theisman.

ldwechsler wrote:
It is pretty clear that years ago, RFC was still hung up on the Brit/French Revolution paradigm. That has changed.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
The committee killed 10's of millions in the civilian uprisings in Neuvo Paris in addition to the million + dead from the Octagon bombing. Not counting the 10's of millions simply disappeared, and other millions killed in public riots and interventions. The number killed by the committee is insane even before considering the officer purges, and the Legislaturalist purges in general, not to mention the deeper losses taken by the navy after it purged the officer corp. I don't know if the Republic could even afford to open the door to that idea.

I know! No way anyone could afford that!

Holy Batman Robin! I had no earthly idea the butcher bull was that insane. That's beyond insane. I knew there were many killed. But that's more than the entire number killed accumulatively in all three navies put together, from the beginning of OBS. Make that from Edward Saganami's first kill! No?

Which now makes me angry at Theisman and Company! What took them so long to revolt? I'm ashamed of them right now. Didn't they have any balls at all? At least Esther acted first! How could anyone stand idly by and let that many die before acting much sooner? Why didn't some conscientious officer just plain old execute Saint Just long before that many perished? That's enough blood shed to turn the whole Nile River red.

A bunch of damn pansies!

...really? You're really going to say shit like this when you know I'm on this board?

BAD puppy. No biscuit!

What, precisely, would Theisman have accomplished by acting earlier? The only reason he was able to act in the first place is because McQueen's coup failed and Saint-Just handed him Capital Fleet! All he would've managed would've been to get himself disappeared or worse. To paraphrase his dear friend and compatriot - "standing up defiantly for his principles would have been noble and gallant... and unforgivably stupid. It had been his responsibility to stay alive to fight for those principles, however clandestinely..."

Theisman was, by pure luck or God's own hand, placed in the perfect position at the perfect time. Before then the Committee had been too strong; it was only after Pierre's death and McQueen's attempted coup that it began to falter. Saint-Just's death any earlier would've accomplished nothing but to provide more fodder for the propaganda machine and turned him into a martyr. But when Theisman was given Capital Fleet - and Amanda Graveson's notes - his position became unassailable. He controlled Haven's high orbitals now, and nothing could touch him because of that. From an even slightly weaker position, his coup too would have failed, and with it Haven's last chance at salvation.

Now go back to your crate. You're officially in the doghouse.