SPOILER end of the MA

kzt wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I am sure there are people dragging their feet in both the RMN and the RoH. I think most of the issues are going to be the middlemen though without knowing who's going to replace all the leadership lost in Beowulf who knows. However, I disagree that their aren't valid military reasons to do this. The most valid reason being Beowulf, Manticore, and Grayson can't produce ships at the moment. According to the Queen, they are about to offer reciprocal citizenship in a year. I find it hard to believe they'd be doing that if the weren't going to share technology especially after they've already moved everything out bolthole.

Intent is always a guess, but capabilities are easier to determine. Currently the only star nation with the capability to defeat Manticore is Haven. Every piece of tech you give them adds to that.

The RMN can build ships at Beowulf and they cwil shortly be able to build new ships at Manticore. And they don't need new ships anyhow.

Our biggest ally in the middle east in 1975 was our biggest foe in 1979. The most important ally Nazi Germany had in 1940 was the Soviet Union.

There are no eternal and undying love affairs between nations.

I find it unlikely, with 43 million dead, Beowulf is going to go right back to building ships tomorrow. We also don't know what capacity they'll have at Manticore when they start building ships again. also a short time is still awhile away when they don't have any ship yard at all. They could lay down hulls tomorrow and it would still take almost 2 years to complete SDs with a full work ups and everything.

Why doesn't the RMN need new ships? Are they satisfied with current numbers?

Also agree there are no love affairs between nations, however given what the Queen and the president said I think it'll happen. However some love affairs last a long time. They're already sharing all of their R&D. They'll have access to everything anyways. Even if the SEM doesn't spend a dime the RoH will. It would be criminal of them not to take advantage.

ywing14 wrote:I find it unlikely, with 43 million dead, Beowulf is going to go right back to building ships tomorrow. We also don't know what capacity they'll have at Manticore when they start building ships again. also a short time is still awhile away when they don't have any ship yard at all. They could lay down hulls tomorrow and it would still take almost 2 years to complete SDs with a full work ups and everything.

In the August/September 1922 timeframe in UH, Honor's inner voice says that the first Manticorian shipyard modules are only ~8-10 t-months away from starting new ship construction, or roughly the June 1923 timeframe.

Sadly, we know the new construction crews will not be as efficient as Manticore's old crews were; even after some practice, Manticore may never hit that efficiency again - and hopefully, they won't need to. While Manticore could build a serial built SD(p)in 22 months in 1920pd, no one else could do it in less than 36; and some (Solarian League) took more than 72 months for a sub-7 Mton SD. I think it's safe to assume that the initial efficiency would fall somewhere in the Galactic average, so call it 40-48 months for a SD(p), and fall from there as the crews are trained and the rough spots are ironed out.

If we assume the first new construction will be more Avalons (or an Avalon-B upgrade), We could be seeing new Manticorian construction being available in Summer 1924. Heavy Cruisers will probably take until Christmas 1924/Winter 1925 for 1st construction, and BCs until Fall 1925. New CLACs could complete no earlier than sometime in 1926, and SD(p)s, no earlier than Fall 1926/winter 1927. (these dates all assume construction starts on the various classes in mid 1923). Of course, any follow-on ships will probably be completed 20-30% quicker than the initial ship, especially if it is a repeat of an earlier ship.

Killing 1% of your population in a surprise and carefully planned terror attack while leaving essentially their entire industrial infrastructure completely intact is not something that makes normal people decide to stop supporting the foes of the terrorists.

How many of the 43M killed in the habitats worked in the yards where the Manti/Haven hybrids were going to be fitted with the components that couldn't be manufactured by Haven?

I am sure that would slow down the production, just as much as the blow to the Beowulf psyche.

kzt wrote:Killing 1% of your population in a surprise and carefully planned terror attack while leaving essentially their entire industrial infrastructure completely intact is not something that makes normal people decide to stop supporting the foes of the terrorists.

How many of the yard workers were sent to the Habitats when the SLN attacked? I find it unlikely they were supposed to stay out in the yard during the attack. Given the SLN's previous decision to not target habitats it is unlikely they'd have left their workers out in the yards which wear clearly a target. Not to mention that was the 1% of your population that lived and worked in space.

The loss of any industrial workers in Beowulf is mitigated by the loss of infrastructure but no workers in 6 other Core World systems. Hiring some of those workers as those systems rebuilt would help all involved. The same applies to ramping up production is the Talbot and Silesian yards.

PeterZ wrote:The loss of any industrial workers in Beowulf is mitigated by the loss of infrastructure but no workers in 6 other Core World systems. Hiring some of those workers as those systems rebuilt would help all involved. The same applies to ramping up production is the Talbot and Silesian yards.

I am sure it'll mitigate things to some extent, but I don't see that happening very quickly. We don't know the extent of those systems orbital infrastructure. They may do things differently than Beowulf and it doesn't sound like any of them maintained an SDF other than LACs so I'm not sure how many shipyard workers they could provide. I also think they'll be busy rebuilding their own space infrastructure.

What are they going to produce in Talbot and Silesia? If those yards can't produce SEM equipment there really isn't a point to ramping up production. Upgrading them to SEM level certainly but that'll take time.

ywing14 wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The loss of any industrial workers in Beowulf is mitigated by the loss of infrastructure but no workers in 6 other Core World systems. Hiring some of those workers as those systems rebuilt would help all involved. The same applies to ramping up production is the Talbot and Silesian yards.

I am sure it'll mitigate things to some extent, but I don't see that happening very quickly. We don't know the extent of those systems orbital infrastructure. They may do things differently than Beowulf and it doesn't sound like any of them maintained an SDF other than LACs so I'm not sure how many shipyard workers they could provide. I also think they'll be busy rebuilding their own space infrastructure.

What are they going to produce in Talbot and Silesia? If those yards can't produce SEM equipment there really isn't a point to ramping up production. Upgrading them to SEM level certainly but that'll take time.

Silesian yards can produce their own designs for local anti piracy defense. Same with the Talbot yards. Those warships are sufficient to deter pirates, well, any warship will deter pirates. Once the GA comes up with export models for the regional defense alliances, they can upgrade their yards as appropriate.

I understand what you're saying and especially agree with you that pretty much any ships would deter pirates. I just think at the moment. The GA has sufficient forces to police it's own territory. So it can concentrate on upgrading its own yards and what not. And then get back to building vessels and export models as you say.

I think one of the best things Manticore (specifically the Old Kingdom) would be something along the lines of education support. Whether through the government or private organizations providing teachers and educational support to get a lot of these worlds education systems up would greatly improve their systems and their economies in the long term.