SPOILER end of the MA

ywing14 wrote:I think you might have to worry about turning the GA into a Giant Military Industrial complex if you try and arm all those worlds export models whatever.

Not really, there are already plenty of yards in Haven, at what rate do you think Haven can produce export version LACs? In the battle of Love Haven lost 10,000 LAC's in one system alone, if that system had so much imagine what their total is and then consider that they were all build within 5 years. Building 10,20,30 or 40 thousand LAC's would not be that hard for Haven considering they will not all be build simultaneously or even within a couple of years. Even if the GA had 50,000 LAC's in it's inventory that they can sell to the verge chances are few systems in the verge have the means to operate those LACs just yet.

ywing14 wrote:
Anna, I do not believe that is what RFC said.

It has to be a balancing act, you give the verge system the means to protect themselves from most pirates without giving them the means to contribute to the problem. Nothing would be worse politically from the point of view of the GA than if the destroyers and cruisers they provided for the verge systems ended up as pirates, ships for warlords.


Verge systems have to agree to key conditions before they receive military, industrial and economic help from the GA and they have to prove that they adhere to those values and conditions before the GA trusts them with weapons that give them the chance to contribute to the problem.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I think you might have to worry about turning the GA into a Giant Military Industrial complex if you try and arm all those worlds export models whatever.

Not really, there are already plenty of yards in Haven, at what rate do you think Haven can produce export version LACs? In the battle of Love Haven lost 10,000 LAC's in one system alone, if that system had so much imagine what their total is and then consider that they were all build within 5 years. Building 10,20,30 or 40 thousand LAC's would not be that hard for Haven considering they will not all be build simultaneously or even within a couple of years. Even if the GA had 50,000 LAC's in it's inventory that they can sell to the verge chances are few systems in the verge have the means to operate those LACs just yet.

The danger is when that debt becomes so bloated that it hurts your own economy and the people who you assist begin to expect it more and more and contribute to it less and less because they know you will. Oftentimes, the hidden costs are almost as bad as the upfront costs.

Being the galaxy's police without any help is costly. Even here on Earth with the US. Look at our frightening Defense/War debt. We've got to do something.

Verge worlds would be stupid to use their own ships to engage in piracy. All they need to do is facilitate the fencing of captured ships and cargo. Having one of their official ships caught in the act of piracy is a death sentence. Having one of the ships they bought from the GA end up in pirate hands is equally dangerous. If the GA discovers that, it's all over. Those systems don't need much for anti-piracy defense, old RoH legacy ships will do.

What would be risky are the better ships the regional alliances will be asking for. Those ships will need to be newer and provide an advantage over SLN ships. Finding a balance there will be tough and more than a tad risky.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I think you might have to worry about turning the GA into a Giant Military Industrial complex if you try and arm all those worlds export models whatever.

Not really, there are already plenty of yards in Haven, at what rate do you think Haven can produce export version LACs? In the battle of Love Haven lost 10,000 LAC's in one system alone, if that system had so much imagine what their total is and then consider that they were all build within 5 years. Building 10,20,30 or 40 thousand LAC's would not be that hard for Haven considering they will not all be build simultaneously or even within a couple of years. Even if the GA had 50,000 LAC's in it's inventory that they can sell to the verge chances are few systems in the verge have the means to operate those LACs just yet.

I am confused, are we arming the Verge are we not arming the Verge. On one hand you tell me we need to arm the entire league and especially the verge with LACs and Missile pods. But then now you say few systems could handle the LACs even export models so we don't have to worry about numbers.

I do think the numbers will be hard to come by since I think most of the GA's goals will be to upgrade RoH's shipyards to handle manticoran tech. Since nothing can at the moment. They can't build any of the things the GA really needs. Just the shells sorta. Not to mention they'll be concentrating on rebuilding their own forces.

ywing14 wrote:I do think the numbers will be hard to come by since I think most of the GA's goals will be to upgrade RoH's shipyards to handle manticoran tech. Since nothing can at the moment. They can't build any of the things the GA really needs. Just the shells sorta.

If I was a senior honcho in the RMN I’d be very much dragging my feet on that. There is no valid military reason to do that. The whole we are all friends now stuff is all personality driven, there are multiple factions in Haven’s government that disagree with this.

kzt wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I do think the numbers will be hard to come by since I think most of the GA's goals will be to upgrade RoH's shipyards to handle manticoran tech. Since nothing can at the moment. They can't build any of the things the GA really needs. Just the shells sorta.

If I was a senior honcho in the RMN I’d be very much dragging my feet on that. There is no valid military reason to do that. The whole we are all friends now stuff is all personality driven, there are multiple factions in Haven’s government that disagree with this.

I am sure there are people dragging their feet in both the RMN and the RoH. I think most of the issues are going to be the middlemen though without knowing who's going to replace all the leadership lost in Beowulf who knows. However, I disagree that their aren't valid military reasons to do this. The most valid reason being Beowulf, Manticore, and Grayson can't produce ships at the moment. According to the Queen, they are about to offer reciprocal citizenship in a year. I find it hard to believe they'd be doing that if the weren't going to share technology especially after they've already moved everything out bolthole.

Annachie wrote:Hence LAC's and missiles pods.

Cheap, better than anything they've seen, and can be made not actually SOTA. (Pre Grayson compensators, no bucklers, etc)

And visibly what the SEM are using for lesser systems in Talbot.

OK, the SEM are using SOTA, but the idea is still there.

Set up yards in Talbot and it's a good little economy boost.

Yes there are trade offs. Difficulty with stuff beyond the limit.
But for old verge worlds, it's a feasable soloution.

Sounds like you want the prewar LACs Hemphill came up with that Honor discusses in A Short Victorious War.

There's a few different concepts and conversations floating around here, and that is getting confusing.

It appears that one is "Arm the Verge". Give them hyper capable ships or whatever.

Others appear to be along a similar vein.
In some cases it might actually help the GA to give away/sell cheap some heavy cruisers or BC's.

But what I am saying is that the SEM, specifically the Talbot cluster, should be preparing to sell ships and defence pods when the smaller verge systems come asking.
Focusing on the smaller system side of things, where the cluster government can quite honestly go "Well, it's pretty much what we use."

The bonus side effect, for me at least, is that systems that do go that route will be seen as less risky to their neighbours. IE: No force projection.

Second bonus, is that by making them in the cluster it's a good boost for their economy.

ywing14 wrote:I am sure there are people dragging their feet in both the RMN and the RoH. I think most of the issues are going to be the middlemen though without knowing who's going to replace all the leadership lost in Beowulf who knows. However, I disagree that their aren't valid military reasons to do this. The most valid reason being Beowulf, Manticore, and Grayson can't produce ships at the moment. According to the Queen, they are about to offer reciprocal citizenship in a year. I find it hard to believe they'd be doing that if the weren't going to share technology especially after they've already moved everything out bolthole.

Intent is always a guess, but capabilities are easier to determine. Currently the only star nation with the capability to defeat Manticore is Haven. Every piece of tech you give them adds to that.

The RMN can build ships at Beowulf and they cwil shortly be able to build new ships at Manticore. And they don't need new ships anyhow.

Our biggest ally in the middle east in 1975 was our biggest foe in 1979. The most important ally Nazi Germany had in 1940 was the Soviet Union.

There are no eternal and undying love affairs between nations.