The Soul of Haven

DrakBibliophile wrote:Yep, IMO Esther McQueen would have attempted to make herself Empress McQueen.

Would that have necessarily turned out to be a bad thing? The Queen of Manticore is an Empress.

And that could have led to some interesting possibilities if she had boarded Haven One and taken the news of turning Haven into an Empire to Beth and sought her guidance.

if mcqeen had simmilar character to QE3? no

but much as she tried to pretend otherwise, things would not have changed , except intend of commisars she would have had her own hand selected agents watching over the navy, marines etc. I also doubt that they would have been public agents.

the armed forces weren't trusted but at least they knew they weren't trusted. i'm sure many of them would agree that being shot in the face is preferable to being stabbed in the back.

cthia wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Yep, IMO Esther McQueen would have attempted to make herself Empress McQueen.

Would that have necessarily turned out to be a bad thing? The Queen of Manticore is an Empress.

And that could have led to some interesting possibilities if she had boarded Haven One and taken the news of turning Haven into an Empire to Beth and sought her guidance.

The difference between QEIII and Ester McQueen is the environment of their upbringing. Elizabeth grew up in a functioning society, which was (and is) democratic at its core. In a society with a true balance of power between the Monarchy, the Lords and the Commons, and all of them agreed to play by the rules (at least at the surface. We know some people like High Ridge or the North Hollows rather tried to manipulate the system and play the rules - not by the rules)

Ester MacQueen, on the other hand, had to fight tooth and nail to become who she was - and did that in a society, which called itself democratic, but was at its core only a playground for the oligarchic families which ruled it. She knew nothing about balance of power, nothing about equal chances for anyone in their pursue of happiness and success. And after the legislaturistic claim for power was broken, it didn't got any better. Only the kind of obstacles to be avoided changed, nothing else ... So, how should she learn about democratic rules? She didn't know them, and what she knew of them she despised. And - in contrast to Tom Theisman or Eloise Pritchard - Ester McQueen was no historian. So she didn't had an societal exemplary to strive for.

I have always believed that the proper path is a balance maintained between the private sector and the public. Go to far one toward the private and you end up with places like Kornati, New Tuscany and others in the fringe where the oligarchs simply take over, in essence buying the government and using it to keep the plebes in line.

Go too far the other way and you end up with Haven where lack of wealth creation keeps everyone perpetually poor with very few winners.

Corruption can tip things off balance in either direction.

Government is not the enemy. Both individual liberty and prosperity can only be guaranteed by a well governed state overseen by a vigorous citizenry who insists on the rule of law.

If you don't believe that, look around at the alternatives.

Don

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Well, I was never really advocating a Monarchy for Haven to replace its Republic. Eagleeye hit the nail on the head regarding the difference. Manticoran citizens were attuned to a Monarchy and it wasn't alien to them. On the contrary, it was native to who they are and what they knew and wanted. And, the mechanics of it was already emplaced.

Haven, on the other hand, would have found the idea of a monarchy appalling in the memory of their Old Republic and in the midst of their throws of death. Not to mention the political implications it would have sent, trying to adopt the government of its long-time enemy. Someone would have accused McQueen of treason. Certainly if she had made that same voyage to Manticore in Haven One and returned as an Empress.

I don't think anyone wanted a different government other than the Old Republic, certainly not in light of RFC's posts, just a repaired one. Trying to force a Monarchy on their heads, certainly at that juncture while in the midst of a war, would have been ill-advised.

I'm simply not ready to vote so quickly for it to have been a given, to be doomed to failure. And I'm certainly not ready to vote McQueen as someone who would have proved to be unhealthy for the soul of Haven.*

What I personally think McQueen would have done, or rather what I'd've hoped she'd have done, was to turn the reigns over to Theisman - even though he didn't want it - and focused on the Navy. I got the feeling that what Esther cared about was the Navy. Although storyline seemed to paint her as ambitious, to what end? I certainly think McQueen would have demanded certain changes in the Constitution to prevent the kind of political hari kari that she was wrestling. I'd like to believe she would simply have chosen to fix what was wrong to prevent a repeat of the same kind of atrocities. McQueen was passionate too. Not unlike Eloise. The difference between she and Eloise, IMO, would have been the relationship established with Manticore.

Haven certainly made out with Eloise, we all know that. But I don't think McQueen would have been as much as a letdown as you all cast her to be. I really think she would have been a worthy consolation prize.

I'm sad that she didn't get a chance to at least show — what she can do and the hue of her true colors.

One very real consolation prize that would have come out of her success, would have been a lot more lives saved, who just so happened to fall prey to the hands of StateSec — in light of Theisman's coup which came a day late and a dollar short, as far as some very worthy officers and their families were concerned.


*Lacking someone's input who had total access to her personnel file -- like say, the author.

I think the section of the book where it says Theisman believed in the rule of law, sanctity of solemn oaths, and the inviolability of personal responsibility shows the gulf between the two. I think McQueen would have likely ruled somewhat similar to Pierre and Saint Just.

I wonder if Eloise is considering this corruption of the Perriacard Constitution when she and QE are mulling over some sort of mutual recognition of citizens?

By engaging the SEM as a balancing factor to any future temptation towards backsliding into the PRH, Eloise provides another safety valve for her people just in case. If the RoH backslides, her citizens have an option to move to the other nation that recognizes their citizenship. The SEM also has an incentive to push back on any Havenite .....backsliding to prevent a deluge of Havenite immigrants. The reverse is also true.

The relationship is just short of a federal relationship and slightly beyond mere alliance members.

cthia wrote:Well, I was never really advocating a Monarchy for Haven to replace its Republic. Eagleeye hit the nail on the head regarding the difference. Manticoran citizens were attuned to a Monarchy and it wasn't alien to them. On the contrary, it was native to who they are and what they knew and wanted. And, the mechanics of it was already emplaced.

Haven, on the other hand, would have found the idea of a monarchy appalling in the memory of their Old Republic and in the midst of their throws of death. Not to mention the political implications it would have sent, trying to adopt the government of its long-time enemy. Someone would have accused McQueen of treason. Certainly if she had made that same voyage to Manticore in Haven One and returned as an Empress.

I don't think anyone wanted a different government other than the Old Republic, certainly not in light of RFC's posts, just a repaired one. Trying to force a Monarchy on their heads, certainly at that juncture while in the midst of a war, would have been ill-advised.

I'm simply not ready to vote so quickly for it to have been a given, to be doomed to failure. And I'm certainly not ready to vote McQueen as someone who would have proved to be unhealthy for the soul of Haven.*

What I personally think McQueen would have done, or rather what I'd've hoped she'd have done, was to turn the reigns over to Theisman - even though he didn't want it - and focused on the Navy. I got the feeling that what Esther cared about was the Navy. Although storyline seemed to paint her as ambitious, to what end? I certainly think McQueen would have demanded certain changes in the Constitution to prevent the kind of political hari kari that she was wrestling. I'd like to believe she would simply have chosen to fix what was wrong to prevent a repeat of the same kind of atrocities. McQueen was passionate too. Not unlike Eloise. The difference between she and Eloise, IMO, would have been the relationship established with Manticore.

Haven certainly made out with Eloise, we all know that. But I don't think McQueen would have been as much as a letdown as you all cast her to be. I really think she would have been a worthy consolation prize.

I'm sad that she didn't get a chance to at least show — what she can do and the hue of her true colors.

One very real consolation prize that would have come out of her success, would have been a lot more lives saved, who just so happened to fall prey to the hands of StateSec — in light of Theisman's coup which came a day late and a dollar short, as far as some very worthy officers and their families were concerned.


*Lacking someone's input who had total access to her personnel file -- like say, the author.

MacQueen was a dictator on the make. She simply wanted to relace Pierre and St Just at the top of the heap. She visualized the navy as her power base rather than the Dolists. Don't kid yourself. MacQueen was not about liberty and the rule of law.

Don

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n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:Well, I was never really advocating a Monarchy for Haven to replace its Republic. Eagleeye hit the nail on the head regarding the difference. Manticoran citizens were attuned to a Monarchy and it wasn't alien to them. On the contrary, it was native to who they are and what they knew and wanted. And, the mechanics of it was already emplaced.

Haven, on the other hand, would have found the idea of a monarchy appalling in the memory of their Old Republic and in the midst of their throws of death. Not to mention the political implications it would have sent, trying to adopt the government of its long-time enemy. Someone would have accused McQueen of treason. Certainly if she had made that same voyage to Manticore in Haven One and returned as an Empress.

I don't think anyone wanted a different government other than the Old Republic, certainly not in light of RFC's posts, just a repaired one. Trying to force a Monarchy on their heads, certainly at that juncture while in the midst of a war, would have been ill-advised.

I'm simply not ready to vote so quickly for it to have been a given, to be doomed to failure. And I'm certainly not ready to vote McQueen as someone who would have proved to be unhealthy for the soul of Haven.*

What I personally think McQueen would have done, or rather what I'd've hoped she'd have done, was to turn the reigns over to Theisman - even though he didn't want it - and focused on the Navy. I got the feeling that what Esther cared about was the Navy. Although storyline seemed to paint her as ambitious, to what end? I certainly think McQueen would have demanded certain changes in the Constitution to prevent the kind of political hari kari that she was wrestling. I'd like to believe she would simply have chosen to fix what was wrong to prevent a repeat of the same kind of atrocities. McQueen was passionate too. Not unlike Eloise. The difference between she and Eloise, IMO, would have been the relationship established with Manticore.

Haven certainly made out with Eloise, we all know that. But I don't think McQueen would have been as much as a letdown as you all cast her to be. I really think she would have been a worthy consolation prize.

I'm sad that she didn't get a chance to at least show — what she can do and the hue of her true colors.

One very real consolation prize that would have come out of her success, would have been a lot more lives saved, who just so happened to fall prey to the hands of StateSec — in light of Theisman's coup which came a day late and a dollar short, as far as some very worthy officers and their families were concerned.


*Lacking someone's input who had total access to her personnel file -- like say, the author.

MacQueen was a dictator on the make. She simply wanted to relace Pierre and St Just at the top of the heap. She visualized the navy as her power base rather than the Dolists. Don't kid yourself. MacQueen was not about liberty and the rule of law.

Don

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I'm shocked and saddened that McQueen gets such bad press and such a bad rep. I did get the feeling that she was a hard ass, yes. But simply as a byproduct of the stink she served under. I also got the impression that Theisman and everyone else supported her. Or at least wanted to support her. Her brilliant offensive operations against the alliance earned her grudging respect not only from Pierre but from her fellow officers. As every other operation coming out of the RHN was getting handed its head. So, in effect, McQueen was saving Havenite lives.

Anyway, I'm in for a massive reread of the series after I get and complete UH. Perhaps I'll get a better feel for McQueen than I have, that's not influenced by her brilliance.

Her mother always told her "Esther, if you can't always get what you want, then make do with what you have."

She remembered that lesson when defending Trevor's Star. She couldn't get the reinforcements that she needed, so she simply went in her closet, pulled out a few mirrors, lit a cigarette and then proceeded to kick the RMN's ass with simply smoke and mirrors.

Esther didn't need straw to make bricks. LOL

no question Mcqueen was good at being military.

as history has shown though often when military rightly used to perform a change in govenment, if the general who ran the op takes power afterwards thing rarely improve for the better.

Tom Theisman knew this which is why he made eloise president. Eloise had military skills but she was technically a civ and also knew enough about the previous republic to model her government on similar lines.