SPOILER end of the MA

Thanks for the info RFC.

Thanks rfc! for all the illumination. While much of was as I had understood it, the time constraints are much clearer from your post.

ywing14 wrote:
Poland and Czechoslovakia still doesn't make sense. Because they were forcibly annexed and had no say in the system. The Core Worlds had a say in the system.

Really? How much say? Especially when they knew if they made too much noise they would get a visit from an SD squadron to "protect" them.

Characters in the book repeatedly talk about how rotten the system was even though they'd all been in it for years.

Because it is so entrenched that nobody sees a real way to fix it. Plus until the war with the SKM no-one saw a need to do so as it worked.

they all had the option to secede,

And the SLN had the option to pay them a visit and occupy them, they all knew exactly what the dangers were and who was at the helm of the League.

Poland and Czechoslovakia didn't have a choice to join or leave.

They could have revolted, it would have had a similar impact as seceding from the League and having the SLN come a knocking.

So the Core Worlds complicity in the face of what was occurring in the protectorates and then they decide maybe we should leave once the "war" started going badly for the SL means you think they should all get a pass and the GA should trust them and sell them SD(P)s?

No they don't ALL get a pass, but they don't ALL share the same amount of blame. Beowulf didn't secede even though it knew how corrupt the system was and what was happening in the verge so they should not get SD(P)'s... Because every system in the League is guilty and Beowulf was in the League therefore they are guilty.

n7axw wrote:Actually, the complicity argument is a bit like a gordian knot with no sword to cut cleanly through. I can see both sides of the argument. Sometimes things arrive at the point where you have to lay aside as to who is to blame for what and move on.

I have been wondering about the thrust of the discussion up here on the forums. It is as though we think that having the galaxy awash in a sea of warships is going to enhance everyone's security. I realize that the logic is unassailable when perceived as "having effective clubs to beat off the barbarians." After all, is every problem is a nail, then what is needed are lots of bigger hammers.

But when you step back and look at the situation, is this really the best approach to security? Looking at it from a wider perspective, is having everyone armed to the teeth going to make anyone safer? I doubt it...

Don

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The idea is to give the people that were being oppressed by the League control of their own protection as a means to show them that the GA is not Frontier Security. Give them control of their defence and assist them in their industrial growth and education and health improvements and it would make the galaxy or at least that part of the galaxy a safer place. The ships themselves are meant to stop piracy but more importantly, they are meant to symbolize to those systems that you are now in control of your own destiny as a nation.

Sigs wrote:

n7axw wrote:Actually, the complicity argument is a bit like a gordian knot with no sword to cut cleanly through. I can see both sides of the argument. Sometimes things arrive at the point where you have to lay aside as to who is to blame for what and move on.

I have been wondering about the thrust of the discussion up here on the forums. It is as though we think that having the galaxy awash in a sea of warships is going to enhance everyone's security. I realize that the logic is unassailable when perceived as "having effective clubs to beat off the barbarians." After all, is every problem is a nail, then what is needed are lots of bigger hammers.

But when you step back and look at the situation, is this really the best approach to security? Looking at it from a wider perspective, is having everyone armed to the teeth going to make anyone safer? I doubt it...

Don

-

The idea is to give the people that were being oppressed by the League control of their own protection as a means to show them that the GA is not Frontier Security. Give them control of their defence and assist them in their industrial growth and education and health improvements and it would make the galaxy or at least that part of the galaxy a safer place. The ships themselves are meant to stop piracy but more importantly, they are meant to symbolize to those systems that you are now in control of your own destiny as a nation.

What we have to understand is that Sollie foreign policy and even its policy towards protectorates just didn't really matter.
People are interested in what affects them...not things light years away.

I read somewhere that we have something like 30 wars going on now but almost all of them get no coverage. We look at the Ukraine and the Middle East because a) they feature Europeans are most of us either hail from there or are descendants, b) we identify with one side or another, or c) there may be consequences that affect us.

Why would someone on a League member planet (and there are over 1500 of those) care about what happens half a galaxy away? Taxes from the League are tiny and governments manage themselves on planet. The League doesn't matter a lot but it does just a little. The fact that no one tried to get out demonstrates that no world felt it was worth its time going through the process.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:
Poland and Czechoslovakia still doesn't make sense. Because they were forcibly annexed and had no say in the system. The Core Worlds had a say in the system.

Really? How much say? Especially when they knew if they made too much noise they would get a visit from an SD squadron to "protect" them.

Characters in the book repeatedly talk about how rotten the system was even though they'd all been in it for years.

Because it is so entrenched that nobody sees a real way to fix it. Plus until the war with the SKM no-one saw a need to do so as it worked.

they all had the option to secede,

And the SLN had the option to pay them a visit and occupy them, they all knew exactly what the dangers were and who was at the helm of the League.

Poland and Czechoslovakia didn't have a choice to join or leave.

They could have revolted, it would have had a similar impact as seceding from the League and having the SLN come a knocking.

So the Core Worlds complicity in the face of what was occurring in the protectorates and then they decide maybe we should leave once the "war" started going badly for the SL means you think they should all get a pass and the GA should trust them and sell them SD(P)s?

No they don't ALL get a pass, but they don't ALL share the same amount of blame. Beowulf didn't secede even though it knew how corrupt the system was and what was happening in the verge so they should not get SD(P)'s... Because every system in the League is guilty and Beowulf was in the League therefore they are guilty.

The SL wasn't working before the confrontation. The war with the GA just put a spotlight on the SL problems everyone was ignoring. Lets see, Beowulf tried to address the problems in the Assembly, proposed an investigation of the navy's actions, moved to secede from the GA, provided ship support for the rebuilding of the Manticoran space stations. That kind of behavior demonstrates trust. What have other worlds done beside maybe Hypatia?

Sigs wrote:

n7axw wrote:Actually, the complicity argument is a bit like a gordian knot with no sword to cut cleanly through. I can see both sides of the argument. Sometimes things arrive at the point where you have to lay aside as to who is to blame for what and move on.

I have been wondering about the thrust of the discussion up here on the forums. It is as though we think that having the galaxy awash in a sea of warships is going to enhance everyone's security. I realize that the logic is unassailable when perceived as "having effective clubs to beat off the barbarians." After all, is every problem is a nail, then what is needed are lots of bigger hammers.

But when you step back and look at the situation, is this really the best approach to security? Looking at it from a wider perspective, is having everyone armed to the teeth going to make anyone safer? I doubt it...

Don

-

The idea is to give the people that were being oppressed by the League control of their own protection as a means to show them that the GA is not Frontier Security. Give them control of their defence and assist them in their industrial growth and education and health improvements and it would make the galaxy or at least that part of the galaxy a safer place. The ships themselves are meant to stop piracy but more importantly, they are meant to symbolize to those systems that you are now in control of your own destiny as a nation.

I'm not advocating either pacifism or gun control. But living in the midst of a situation where everyone is armed to the teeth and on a short fuse really is not conducive to public safety either. Living in the equivalent of a wild west town where the law has been run out of town and conflict is settled at high noon in the middle of main street really isn't my cup of tea.

Don

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n7axw wrote:I'm not advocating either pacifism or gun control. But living in the midst of a situation where everyone is armed to the teeth and on a short fuse really is not conducive to public safety either. Living in the equivalent of a wild west town where the law has been run out of town and conflict is settled at high noon in the middle of main street really isn't my cup of tea.

Well, historically having only "legitimate" people and organizations have arms has worked out well. For example, Germany in 1938. Strict weapons control combined with a rather low crime rate, other than those undesirables that have to be taught a lesson by the legitimate authorities. Or Russia in 1938. Or Cambodia in 1973. Or Mexico today, which has very, very strict gun control. In fact the only place you can buy a gun is one store on a military base in Mexico city. So naturally it has a super low crime rate...

1/

Kzt, are you trying to shut this thread down?

If you want to talk guns, take it to that thread ....

ywing14 wrote:
The SL wasn't working before the confrontation. The war with the GA just put a spotlight on the SL problems everyone was ignoring. Lets see, Beowulf tried to address the problems in the Assembly, proposed an investigation of the navy's actions, moved to secede from the GA, provided ship support for the rebuilding of the Manticoran space stations. That kind of behavior demonstrates trust. What have other worlds done beside maybe Hypatia?

It was fairly easy for Beowulf to make that decision though, after all the RMN was right on the other side of the WH and so was the RHN... thats more than most other systems can say. The once the seceded without the GA fleets being mere hours away made a significantly more important system then Beowulf which already had a few dozen SD(P)'s in its space and had several hundred SD(P)'s within easy reach.