Mesan Alignment - Back on Balance

Why on Earth err Darius did the MAN need 28 Sharks? They were simply a proof of concept and weren't ever planned to take the fight to the foe. They certainly had to represent a sizable investment.

It makes sense for the MA to let some centuries pass in-between them now. Remember, they are also short on COs and experience and can't presently afford to lose any, such as Walsh or Topolev....

MANS Mako was a Shark-class pod laying strike ship of the Mesan Alignment Navy.

Commanded by Captain Joshua Walsh, it served as Admiral Frederick Topolev's flagship in Task Force One. -qwiki

They need some time to clone RMN's BuPers.

A squadron of Lennys crewed by Alphas may prove to be quite formidable to unsuspecting foes, as well as Alphas crewing RF ships.

Much like Kirk's worthy adversaries represented by the highly superior, extremely intelligent, genetically engineered Khan and his crew, who was, much more intelligent, but lacked experience and suffered from two-dimensional thinking.

The MA can train so as not to repeat Khan's shortcomings while churning out those Alpha officers. Can you imagine ships crewed by a Harrington at every post? If indeed the MA can pull it off.

Supplying Alpha officers is one way to support the RF.

As an aside:
Will the MAN have the potential to become to the RF as the SLN was to FF? Tensions born between the two from incompetence and arrogance?

Other advantages that were invaluable during battle with Khan's genengineered crew were their superior strength amongst other genengineered advantages like being able to survive in an oxygen depleted atmosphere. Can you imagine Alpha's all over the ship, like in Engineering, being able to lift entire bulkheads? Dominica Santos could have used that advantage. Moving heavy ordnance around would be easier as well.

If the MA can indeed get back on balance and see their way through to the endgame, the galaxy may indeed find itself colonized.

cthia wrote:Why on Earth err Darius did the MAN need 28 Sharks? They were simply a proof of concept and weren't ever planned to take the fight to the foe. They certainly had to represent a sizable investment.

Simply because of their multiplying effect. 28 Sharks means also 28 core crews for the Lenny Dets at any time they become available - and if they relay different crews through the Sharks - say, every 6 month is a crew change for a quarter of the Sharks - you have in only 2 years 4times as many crews ready to serve as core for the Lenny Dets - or 3times as much, if you want all the Sharks to stay crewed.

Eagleeye wrote:

cthia wrote:Why on Earth err Darius did the MAN need 28 Sharks? They were simply a proof of concept and weren't ever planned to take the fight to the foe. They certainly had to represent a sizable investment.

Simply because of their multiplying effect. 28 Sharks means also 28 core crews for the Lenny Dets at any time they become available - and if they relay different crews through the Sharks - say, every 6 month is a crew change for a quarter of the Sharks - you have in only 2 years 4times as many crews ready to serve as core for the Lenny Dets - or 3times as much, if you want all the Sharks to stay crewed.

Thanks Eagleye. Yours is an Alpha brain whereas I have to work hard at it.

Of course, that's assuming that the crew complement of a Shark will be fairly comparable to that of a Lenny?

But yes, they do need time to grow an Alpha officer corp and crew. Using the Sharks as live holotanks is genius. Alpha level genius -- or just plain born out of necessity. I guess 28 Sharks will also allow them to have their own version of wargames as well.

Again, thanks for the extra pair of alpha eyes.

In a way I suppose it mirrors the infancy of Alice Truman's wet-behind-the-ears original LAC wing, headed up by Tremaine.

ywing14 wrote:A lot of things could happen in 200 years, the MAlign could orchestrate another war between star nations. GA could view the threat as gone (Unlikely in certain portions of the government) but likely for aspects of the population. We've discussed previously that the GA is going to be looking for the MAlign. I think more planets makes it easier for the GA to stubble upon them.

1)Orchestrating another war depends on convincing at least one side to do what you want them to do when you want them to do while they have free will, chances are you have to convince two sides to do what you want them to do when you want them to do it and how you want them to do it. This would be hard to do if circumstances do not line up with your efforts and it would greatly depend on the people being manipulated to not wise up or do something that destroys the MA's plans. They can lay the foundations for another war and have it fail because someone stumble onto the truth.

2) More planets increase the chance of discovery but you won't colonize planets all that close to human space, there are only so many ships the GA has for finding the MA and likely they would depend on intelligence gathering rather than scouting to find Darius. If the MA moves far enough to avoid accidental discoveries they would be safe unless the GA finds evidence as to the specific area where the new worlds are. Colonize worlds that are 1-2 years travel time away, as the MA get's stronger they can start colonizing closer and closer to human space until they meet up but initially they can spread in all directions safely knowing that the GA cannot realistically send them anywhere near enough ships to cover that volume of space.

Darius uses genetic slavery, so I am not 100% certain how money plays into everything their doing.

Because having the finances from the MWWJ means you can go and buy something from another system that you need without having to build it. Darius does not have that ability because it is not tied into galactic financial systems and cannot openly go and import whatever it needs because even if it is rerouted through somewhere else this would leave a physical trail for the GA to follow, something the GA can use to find Darius.

If money is an issue how are they going to come up with it to colonize planets and build naval vessels?

Money is not an issue, money is an issue when you try to compare the SKM to Darius. The money the SKM made from their MM and the MWWJ allowed them to utilize another systems industrial potential to get what they want... with financial resources you can utilize other systems to get what you want, without them you depend on your own internal resources for everything. The MA can build anything they want from internal(Darius) resources within reason, Manticore build whatever they wanted/needed and used the money they made from trade and the junction to buy the rest from other nations therefore they weren't relying on only their internal resources.

Also look at tall the worlds that had major setbacks during the colonization process. Manticore had one, the Andies had one (though its more the planet had an issue and it too 20 years to address), Choboter had one fairly recently in the verge. I also don't think it would be easier and easier at every planet. Yeah you might have the preparation part down but every planet is different and the threats on each planet will be different.

none of those colonization efforts were coordinated and organized past the one system stage. What I am talking about is making a plan and not abandoning the system when colonized, going in better prepared. It becomes easier because with every successive stage the MA would gain more knowledge and more understanding of the colonization process, it is true every planet would have different problems and dangerous but when the MA as an organization has dealt with colonizing 20 different planets the 21st might have unique problems but they will have. standardized sequence to follow that allows those problems to be overcome faster.

When you colonize the first 2-4 systems the next 20-30 years would be spend building them up but the MA would also invest that time into scouting the next batch and studying them to anticipate and issues with colonization process. When an issue is found they can move to the next stage of trying to fix it or at least make a plan for the smooth colonization of the planet. Then you would have a large pool of resources to draw on after the first phase is completed which few colonization efforts in the series could count on especially in the verge.

So at what point do they come into the open? because it seems to me like you want the Malign to completely change their strategy and go for an outright military solution. In 120 years they've got 80 planets. Do you think they could hide all that from the rest of the Galaxy?

Do you understand how big space is? I am not taking about colonizing right next to Manticore, I am talking about colonizing 5000 LY away from the Earth, which would mean that there would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of half a billion stars that the MA can scout pick and colonize. Not all of them would have planets and even those that do have planets few would be with habitable planets but that is a lot of Realestate. How long do you think it would take the GA to scout 500,000,000 stars especially when the fastest star is years away at top speed without taking into account that the MA has the streak drive which means they can actually go much further. One system, 10 systems or 1,000 systems will be pretty hard to find if you have a sphere of space with a diameter of 5000 or even 10,000 LY to search.

cthia wrote:
Thanks Eagleye. Yours is an Alpha brain whereas I have to work hard at it.

Of course, that's assuming that the crew complement of a Shark will be fairly comparable to that of a Lenny?

But yes, they do need time to grow an Alpha officer corp and crew. Using the Sharks as live holotanks is genius. Alpha level genius -- or just plain born out of necessity. I guess 28 Sharks will also allow them to have their own version of wargames as well.

Again, thanks for the extra pair of alpha eyes.

In a way I suppose it mirrors the infancy of Alice Truman's wet-behind-the-ears original LAC wing, headed up by Tremaine.

If the MA builds the Sharks to be labour intensive(low automation) and the Lennys to be heavily automated the crew size could be the same regardless of the crew.

Sigs wrote:

cthia wrote:
Thanks Eagleye. Yours is an Alpha brain whereas I have to work hard at it.

Of course, that's assuming that the crew complement of a Shark will be fairly comparable to that of a Lenny?

But yes, they do need time to grow an Alpha officer corp and crew. Using the Sharks as live holotanks is genius. Alpha level genius -- or just plain born out of necessity. I guess 28 Sharks will also allow them to have their own version of wargames as well.

Again, thanks for the extra pair of alpha eyes.

In a way I suppose it mirrors the infancy of Alice Truman's wet-behind-the-ears original LAC wing, headed up by Tremaine.

If the MA builds the Sharks to be labour intensive(low automation) and the Lennys to be heavily automated the crew size could be the same regardless of the crew.

Building a crew of alphas is wasteful and probably counter-productive. Alphas are generally leaders. Also, it is hardly necessary. LACs ran with 10 crew members and not all that many were alphas. Do you need an alpha mechanic or someone who simply works well with motors?

The problem is that if you depend on one specific tech, someone will come along to beat it. The most recent book has examples of that.

Why spend a fortune on creating new planets when it might be simpler to simply take over, slowly and gently, existing planets. In essence, Grayson was taken over by its geneticists who made massive changes that impacted society.

Why not do the same around the galaxy? Also, improving people through genetics and NOT breaking the Beowulf Code could create leadership groups on a lot of planets. Compare the costs. Billions to set up a planet and hope you get something valuable.

OR: Send a specialist or two to a lightly settled planet. Look around for a few leader types and offer some genetic assistance and a few million here or there to set them up in a good business.

I think the second method might not only work better but you could get a lot more of those done than the first and spend less money.

ldwechsler wrote:

Why spend a fortune on creating new planets when it might be simpler to simply take over, slowly and gently, existing planets. In essence, Grayson was taken over by its geneticists who made massive changes that impacted society.

Because if they had cared abut slow and gradual the MA would have started doing so 600 years before UH. The problem with slow and gradual is that a lot has happened and anything they do slowly and gradually could be undone if the MA is exposed and their past actions in Manticore, Grayson, Mesa and Beowulf are brought to the general galactic knowledge. I don't get why people want to force their idea's on everyone else and do it in such long term when the MA can invest those resources and 500 years down the road have their own massive nation and society demonstrating they are superior or not. If they want to conquer the rest of humanity then they will have the military and industrial might to do as they please, otherwise if the slow and steady approach doesn't quite work and the manipulation approach doesn't quite work they end up in the same position as they were as of the end of UH.

Sigs wrote:

cthia wrote:
Thanks Eagleye. Yours is an Alpha brain whereas I have to work hard at it.

Of course, that's assuming that the crew complement of a Shark will be fairly comparable to that of a Lenny?

But yes, they do need time to grow an Alpha officer corp and crew. Using the Sharks as live holotanks is genius. Alpha level genius -- or just plain born out of necessity. I guess 28 Sharks will also allow them to have their own version of wargames as well.

Again, thanks for the extra pair of alpha eyes.

In a way I suppose it mirrors the infancy of Alice Truman's wet-behind-the-ears original LAC wing, headed up by Tremaine.

If the MA builds the Sharks to be labour intensive(low automation) and the Lennys to be heavily automated the crew size could be the same regardless of the crew.

ldwechsler wrote:Building a crew of alphas is wasteful and probably counter-productive. Alphas are generally leaders. Also, it is hardly necessary. LACs ran with 10 crew members and not all that many were alphas. Do you need an alpha mechanic or someone who simply works well with motors?

The problem is that if you depend on one specific tech, someone will come along to beat it. The most recent book has examples of that.

Why spend a fortune on creating new planets when it might be simpler to simply take over, slowly and gently, existing planets. In essence, Grayson was taken over by its geneticists who made massive changes that impacted society.

Why not do the same around the galaxy? Also, improving people through genetics and NOT breaking the Beowulf Code could create leadership groups on a lot of planets. Compare the costs. Billions to set up a planet and hope you get something valuable.

OR: Send a specialist or two to a lightly settled planet. Look around for a few leader types and offer some genetic assistance and a few million here or there to set them up in a good business.

I think the second method might not only work better but you could get a lot more of those done than the first and spend less money.

Losing lots of ships and suffering lots of failed Operations would be even more wasteful. Hopefully they won't have a shortage on either when they emerge from behind the iron curtains.

I gave it a little thought. At any rate, what lines would serve aboard ship? I don't think the MAN would want to seed the ships with COs and XOs with the IQ of the average Solly officer. Especially after having followed their careers and found out how useless they are. The Alpha lines are stated to become the ruling class, yes, so I don't know if in their society that would exclude them from commanding a warship. However, in Manticoran society, Grayson and Andermani the ruling class can be whatever they want. Luckily for them too.

The Beta and Gamma lines are listed as slated to serve the RF, so they are definitely amongst the pool of officers and crew. Yet, if the MA believe in their own rhetoric, then certainly a Beta wouldn't serve as an XO to a Gamma. No?

What is available? Alphas, Betas and Gammas. They are going to be going up against the most experienced Navies of the galaxy. With at least one who has Alpha level intelligence and essentially an undefeated string of victories, Harrington. They cannot afford to fail to at least match up intellectually. Certainly not if their tech fails to match up as well.

They better talk to Tourville before tackling Harrington, and if they send someone weak and he gets his head handed to him and then his replacement and so forth and so on -- and they weren't Alphas, then they are going to have to send Alphas anyway, sooner or later. May as well send the best out of the starting gate.

Initially, I figured at least the Admirals and Captains will be Alphas. But then that leaves the XOs to be Beta or Gamma, who will eventually make Captain or Admiral. It is certainly interesting how it will actually go down.

They better at least have an Alpha going up against Harrington. I can think of several more GA officers that will easily go through the inferior lines.

At any rate, you could very well be closer to the truth and the ships will be commanded and crewed by Betas and Gammas.

They're probably arrogant enough to think their Betas and Gammas will match up. And they may. But if they don't, then by their own logic, they sent Betas and Gammas to do an Alpha's job.

cthia wrote:
Losing lots of ships and suffering lots of failed Operations would be even more wasteful. Hopefully they won't have a shortage on either when they emerge from behind the iron curtains.

I gave it a little thought. At any rate, what lines would serve aboard ship? I don't think the MAN would want to seed the ships with COs and XOs with the IQ of the average Solly officer. Especially after having followed their careers and found out how useless they are. The Alpha lines are stated to become the ruling class, yes, so I don't know if in their society that would exclude them from commanding a warship. However, in Manticoran society, Grayson and Andermani the ruling class can be whatever they want. Luckily for them too.

The Beta and Gamma lines are listed as slated to serve the RF, so they are definitely amongst the pool of officers and crew. Yet, if the MA believe in their own rhetoric, then certainly a Beta wouldn't serve as an XO to a Gamma. No?

What is available? Alphas, Betas and Gammas. They are going to be going up against the most experienced Navies of the galaxy. With at least one who has Alpha level intelligence and essentially an undefeated string of victories, Harrington. They cannot afford to fail to at least match up intellectually. Certainly not if their tech fails to match up as well.

They better talk to Tourville before tackling Harrington, and if they send someone weak and he gets his head handed to him and then his replacement and so forth and so on -- and they weren't Alphas, then they are going to have to send Alphas anyway, sooner or later. May as well send the best out of the starting gate.

Initially, I figured at least the Admirals and Captains will be Alphas. But then that leaves the XOs to be Beta or Gamma, who will eventually make Captain or Admiral. It is certainly interesting how it will actually go down.

They better at least have an Alpha going up against Harrington. I can think of several more GA officers that will easily go through the inferior lines.

At any rate, you could very well be closer to the truth and the ships will be commanded and crewed by Betas and Gammas.

They're probably arrogant enough to think their Betas and Gammas will match up. And they may. But if they don't, then by their own logic, they sent Betas and Gammas to do an Alpha's job.

If they were smart they would basically organize their military along traditional lines, make the capabilities rise above the the genetic line they may represent. Saying that all Alpha's are automatically better then all Gamma's leads to all kinds of problems. Maybe the Alpha's are generally all around better then the Gamma's but doesn't mean that a Gamma cannot be just as good as any Alpha. We have seen throughout the series that the slave lines were not stupid, in fact many of the freed slaves were very intelligent maybe equal to or superior to many alphas. Problems arise when a war kicks off because people may see that in another society they won't be subservient because of their genetic line but have the ability to go and do what they please. Having a large % of your population feeling oppressed may not be the best thing for a long lasting society.