SPOILER end of the MA

ywing14 wrote:To address when did they destroy the reserve


Central Command

NSG Able-One

Naval Station Ganymede

Sol System

Solarian League


<snip>.

Sol was only one of 6 reserve formations. The largest, yes, but only 1 of 6. the majority of the reserve still survives elsewhere.

Ah ywing.

The thing with RFC is, when it comes time to actually write the next book, threads like these do seem to take part in his thinking.

Not the, oh so and so will do this, but the posts that explore the thinking behind why so and so will do something.


Not often, not directly, but it does appear to happen.


Besides, they are just fun threads to be part of.

Theemile wrote:

ywing14 wrote:To address when did they destroy the reserve


Central Command

NSG Able-One

Naval Station Ganymede

Sol System

Solarian League


<snip>.

Sol was only one of 6 reserve formations. The largest, yes, but only 1 of 6. the majority of the reserve still survives elsewhere.

Where'd you find there were 6 reserves? I agree that the fact it was called reserve one implies more than one I just cant find the number 6.

Annachie wrote:Ah ywing.

The thing with RFC is, when it comes time to actually write the next book, threads like these do seem to take part in his thinking.

Not the, oh so and so will do this, but the posts that explore the thinking behind why so and so will do something.


Not often, not directly, but it does appear to happen.


Besides, they are just fun threads to be part of.

I don't really understand what you mean in reference to what I've posted. If it's about LACs and exporting ships then the issue is that I disagree with the thinking behind it.

Of course RFC reads our posts and they make an impression on him and his writing.

In other words, most of the reserve is still there.

ywing14 wrote:“It looks like they took out at least ninety percent of the superdreadnoughts in Reserve One.”

...

His brain raced. He hadn’t even thought about the thousands of obsolescent superdreadnoughts parked in the twenty-four, equidistantly spaced clusters riding Jupiter orbit with Ganymede.

90% of the SDs in Reserve One are gone. 2 through 24 still exist and many of the lighter units of Reserve One still exist.

ywing14 wrote:To address when did they destroy the reserve


Central Command

NSG Able-One

Naval Station Ganymede

Sol System

Solarian League

You do realize the reserve was not all in one place... right?

ywing14 wrote:

I am again just going to direct you to RFC's previous posts about what's better, what isn't, and why hyper capable ships would be better.




But if you're so wedded to the idea of LAC and Frigates they should just build a bunch of the Nat Turner Class Frigates they built for the Kingdom of Torch, which are not only Hyper Capable but also well armed and likely not much more expensive than a regular LAC.

I am not arguing FOR frigates, I am arguing AGAINST hyper capable warships unless there is a real and understood need for them. Giving them a hyper capable frigate is the worst of both worlds, weaker then a destroyer, and still hyper capable thereby can be a perfect little pirate vessel.

Again the GA doesn't have the people to support all these planets and since most of the Verge Systems have over a billion people I'm sure they can come up with a way to crew the vessels and train their people.

I don't know if you have ever served in the military but I have and I can tell you from personal experience that for me to be able to train someone to do my job, someone had to train me before hand. You can't give a verge system with no navy a bunch of warships and let them figure the rest out, the GA has to give them some training to at least form a core cadre to train the rest. It might get expensive providing verge systems with warships if they keep blowing them up because they have no idea what they are doing or letting them blow up because they have no idea how to maintain them... and I doubt the manuals would be that much of a help.

I'll just again reiterate you can't tell worlds how to spend there money.

You can if they are buying from you. You can give them a deep discount for LAC's and FF's with technical and training support or give them full priced destroyers with no support whatsoever, or simply tell them to go get hyper capable ships from somewhere else.

Grayson is a great example.

No it's not, Grayson is a unique situation because if the Manticore Alliance didn't need them so badly the GSN would still be quite insignificant.

It was spending a third of it's GDP on defense prior to joining the alliance.

Necessity not choice. Someone was holding a pistol to their collective heads, they weren't in a position to not invest in their navy.

It had a good reason for doing so. Manticore didn't tell the Graysons what they could and couldn't spend their money on.

Because they needed them, if Manticore had determined that the GSN didn't need Hyper Capable ships they would have chosen not to sell them any hyper capable ships and left Grayson with the choice of building their own ships.

The GA's job is not to be Honorverse's Moral, Economic, and Fun police.

Sure it is, their job is to prop as much of the verge up as possible in the shortest amount of time before their technological advantage evaporates.

You separated my two sentence in your post but they really go together. You can't tell Systems what to do you just don't sell them things you think they won't use properly.

That's my point... if you don't think they should have hyper capable ships you don't offer to sell them hyper capable ships it is literally that simple.

Do mistakes happen? Sure, just asked the Russians I'm sure they regret giving separatists in the Ukraine that SAM they used to shoot down the airliner.

And if the Russians had waited until they knew the separatists could handle such weapons maybe several hundred people would still be alive.

But things like that happen when sell/give away weapons.

Would you have the same attitude towards the sale of nuclear weapons?

I don't know where you got your 1000 systems 50%-80% economic figures from.

From what I understood the verge is anywhere from 1,000 systems to as many as 4,000. As for the economic figures? How do you think they will pay for Destroyers and cruisers when likely most verge systems have backwards economies?

The fact of the matter is we have no idea what any system economies in the verge, shell, or protectorates are going to look like Some will be like San Miguel and Rembrant others will be like Dresden and Nunico. Both were verge systems both maintained navies with hyper capable ships which I'm sure could have afforded to build or purchase CL/CAs possible more if they wanted to.

I don't think Nuncio had any hyper capable warships aside from the CA that Terekhov left them and that was badly damaged.

Issuing a Monroe Doctrine statement is the opposite of what they need to do. The Monroe Doctrine sounded great in theory pretty much every country in central and south America came to resent the USA for issuing it.

I'm sure thats why Central and South America resent the US...

And Europeans and South/Central American still bring it up to this day with negative connotations.

Because at the time the US had no means to enforce it. The US Navy was insignificant even compared to second class powers in Europe not to mention France, England or Spain.

That's precisely what would happen to the GA.

Not likely, the GA can actually enforce it.

Next thing you'll say is it's the GA's Manifest Destiny to control the entire Verge.

OMG how did you know? Can you read my mind? Are you Psychic?

Verge systems would likely get tired of the GA constantly meddling in their affairs. Honors already told the SL they've more or less gave to permit worlds to secede from the SL and they'd destroy any SLN ship not in an SL system in one month.

So? All I am saying is that the GA issues a strongly worded proclamation backed by the GSN, RMN and RHN that keeps all shell and core worlds wether in the League or out of the League to keep their hands off. Then turn to the verge systems and give them sufficient forces depending on the individual circumstances for protection from pirates and invest anything and everything you can in the betterment of stable and motivated verge worlds. Control shell and core investment in the verge as well by preventing the core and shell from robbing the verge worlds they deal with. Some will invest in large militaries, others will invest in sufficient militaries for their needs and expand their industry, improve their economy etc...50 years down the road those that invested in improving their economies might be able to afford fleets with SD(P)'s of their own if they need/want them. While those that invested heavily in fleets they didn't need to the detriment of their industry end up falling behind and eventually being integrated into someone else's nation wether willingly or not.

The GA should certainly be encouraging economic expansion in the verge. They can do this by encouraging investments and low interest loans.

While discouraging the systems in question from taking those low interest loans and investing them in unnecessary ships.

Hell the breaking of the transtellars alone should finally loosen a lot of economies. But purchasing vessels from GA (if it is permitted) should be well within these worlds right.

Is it within the Japan's right to purchase an F-22 from the USAF? If the US can restrict who purchases what from them why can't the GA?

Manticore shouldn't tell them how to spend their own money.

If it is offering them loans sure it could. If those nations are not the recipients loans the GA cans till refuse to sell them ships they deem are not necessary.

The Verge and the Protectorates aren't looking for another Master and the GA shouldn't become one.

I definitely agree. The difference is that the GA will refuse to sell ships to a system it deems doesn't require them. At the end of the day I doubt too many verge systems will go nuts when it comes to naval build up, if the GA plays it right they will be eager to take advantage of the GA's promise to keep the core and shell off their backs, and they will be grateful for the GA providing loans, industrial assistance and technical assistance. If they can become the middleman between core/shell/League and the Verge when it comes to trade in order to ensure that the verge is not being robbed I doubt that there would be much resentment.

ywing14 wrote:

I don't understand what 1 even means. All I said was that some Core Worlds had System Defense Forces it doesn't matter whether they are still in the SL or not. They still have them. They still have the means to care for them and build them if not in massive numbers in some numbers.

Again, I would think most core and shell SDF's purchased their ships from SLN yards, it would be pretty hard to convince a core or shell world to invest in shipyards when the invincible SLN was on their side.

If we use your made up 500 number at 10% that is still over 50 Systems with Navies. Still 50 Worlds that can help other systems train people. All of the Core Worlds have significant economies. I am sure they can maintain something other than LACs.

Yes, 50 navies ranging form a handful of LAC's to a squadron or two SD's. From what I remember from the books, the number of SDF;s with SD of their own was quite small...as in can be counted without needing to take off your shoes.

I'm pretty sure Core Worlds can justify a lot of things.

Not when the SLN has 10,000 SD's hanging around and there is no threat to the League.

But the Core Worlds are heavily industrialized as it is and I am not saying they need to build some massive shipyard capable of building 10,000 SD(s). Something modest that has 5 slips would work just fine.

For what? Building Scientist-Class SD's? who pays for the R&D? What do you do in the mean time?

Or they could do what Grayson was doing during the first Havenite conflict and float pieces into place and then build some docking around them and then put the pieces together that way. I'm not saying that each Core World needs to build 200 SDs. Maintaining a Squadron each of SDs, CAs/CLs, and DDs shouldn't be impossible for them.

Again, they can take the SD's from the reserve since thats pretty much all they can build in terms of SD's anyway unless they invest massive amounts of money and effort into trying to get SD(P)'s of their own.

I don't know what Bolthole and All of the RoH systems even means. We don't have a clue how many yards are in RoH. We know there isn't one at Lovat. All of the current ships being built will go to GA members so it's unlikely they'll be in a position to free up yard space for a while. Designing export versions will also take time which just adds on to how long it'll all take.

Bolthole system is the system where the RHN designed and build 300+ SD(P)'s and 50 CLAC's within a 4 year span. So we can safely assume that they have the ability to build 150 SD(P)'s at a time or more likely 300 SD(P)'s and 50 CLAC's at a time since they would have needed a year or two for R&D and designing of those ships. The rest of the RoH shipyards would be capable of equal output at least combined so that would be at least 600 SD(P)'s and 100 CLAC's at a time. Over the next decade they likely won't be needing the yards at 100% so they can use them to build export versions.

Then there is the little point about already having entire departments dedicated to designing ships, which means they are well ahead of anyone else who is just trying to start building their R&D and ship design capabilities.

I don't think you get what I am driving at. The GA wants the League to break up into smaller pieces. It wants these smaller pieces to develop their own identities and what not. That's the best way to ensure it'll stay that way.

Only they left the League in one piece the last time we saw it, which means they may still be quite powerful in long term.

Developing their own military forces, ships, etc will help them form a separate identities from the SL.

Yeah, that's how they form separate identities...by building a military industrial complex.

The GA needs competition all you do by selling all these things is encourage stagnation. There is nothing wrong with other star nations competing with the GA.

I don't think the GA is likely to stagnate any time soon.

I don't know why you think they'd build subpar vessels right off the bat and why you're assuming they can't build vessels.

No experience designing ships, no experience building ships, no R&D, No ship designing capabilities... just building the R&D and the designing capabilities would be ridiculously expensive and time-consuming without external help. Then add the lack of shipyards and lack of experience with warship construction...

Technodyne was already experimenting with PODs prior to the conflict with the GA. Beowulf was able to laydown missile lines within three months of joining the GA and produce Keyhole platforms etc.

So does every system that gains independence get Technodyne or themselves, or do they stay with only one system? Or maybe they remain in the League?


And beowulf did that because the GA gave them the designs, somehow I doubt the GA will be giving the designs to their most effective weapon systems to everyone that asks for them.

Yeah they didn't design these things but they had the Tech capable of doing it.

Which means absolutely nothing since they didn't have the designs without the GA. No designs no construction.

Will it take longer because they don't have the designs? Most definitely, but it is well within the rest of the Core Worlds abilities if they want to.

Lots of time and Lots of money. And that is just one thing.. missiles. When they have to design ships and research dozens of systems for those ships and research and develop missiles, and LAC's and design CLAC's and design destroyers all the way up to SD(P)'s then build the capabilities etc... it will get expensive. So the Core systems will start asking why they should invest in their domestic shipyards if they can buy the ships from the GA.

And they can just hire people with experience building or designing them.

Where do you get those people from? And would there be enough for every system that wants them?

Furthermore I disagree with your assertion that one of the biggest benefits of being able to build SDs is the ability to sell them. The biggest benefit is the fact that you have the SDs.

They would have them if they bought them from the GA as well its not like the GA will only send them a picture of an SD... this is not eBay.

Where in honorverse have we observed anyone selling SDs to anyone? SKM gave some captured ones to Grayson. I don't recall anywhere else. the closest is Erwhon maybe building them for MARS. But SEM isn't selling them to anyone, and neither was the RoH or Andies. Sell them 20 years from now when they are obsolete sure.

Maybe not the SD's but the League and the SKM and RHN have sold warships to other nations. Erwhon is just building its domestic shipyards after getting a lot of help form Manticore in the first war, until then they were buying ships from the League and then from the SKM. All of the smaller allies of the SKM in the first and second war likely purchased warships from the SKM and the protectorate of Grayson. Then there were the SD's that Grayson bought from the SKM at the end of the first war.

Please elaborate on this? What's the difference?? This statement is absurd. It would be like Vermont saying to Canada you can't blame us because the Federal Government invaded you through New York.

Or it would be like saying France blames Austria for Germany invading them in 1940... its not like Austria had a choice in the matter then again neither did Czechoslovakia or Poland.

If a world is part of the SL and the SLN invaded another system how are they not responsible??

How are they responsible? The the Mandarins ask them for their opinion? Did the SLN consult them before they acted? Was there a vote to declare war?

Those worlds had options Just like Beowulf and Hypatia... Secede. If they didn't then they just as guilty as everyone else. What about all the worlds who voted to censure Beowulf over the Termius incident. If that's not complicity that I don't know what is.

Beowulf was in the wrong... they were first to threaten the SLN.

I understand a lot about export versions of things I just don't think you do. What you're talking about is designing an entirely brand new ship...

Which is not a big deal for those nations that have the staff and experience designing new ships like you know Haven and Manticore.

Not giving them multistage missiles. That's actually the one thing the SLN has now.

So? Give them the SLN version.

You're right they probably could figure the rail system. While they are at it make them figure out how to build the new composite armors Manticore created.

And when they can't dedicate enough money for R&D? Would they go back to the League for protection or form bigger nations for mutual protection...exactly what the GA doesn't want.

I don't even know what slightly better control is since a Saganami C Class ship can control more missiles than a Scientist.

Slightly better then the Scientist not slightly better then the Sag C.

It isn't a simple matter of hey here's an export version of a vessel. You literally want them to design a brand new ship for the SLN. I'm telling you no one in the GA would ever even consider doing that.

And then what? Those ore and shell systems will quickly return to the League for mutual protection because the League has the means to match the GA's technology in 20 years or less while individually they will need 50 or more years. The core and shell worlds would want protection, if the GA won't provide them with the ships then they will look elsewhere as in the League or forming large nations for self preservation and they will be mighty pissed off at the GA to boot.

I see that frigates have been resurrected even though the idea has been thoroughly debunked as ships too small and limited to be of use for serious navies.. Torch, of course, uses them for hunting slavers.

Wayfarer was a podnaught. Not an SDP, but a podnaught. All you need for that is a largish hull and a rail system. That was what Rozak was using at Torch, IIRC. SDPs are not such a big deal. It's what you have aboard the pods and how many control links you have aboard your platform that becomes the measure of how dangerous you are. Remember, a warship is really only a platform for weapons when all is said.

Most of the SDFs do not have Sds. And those that do were probably buying them from Technodyne or another Solly ship builder.

Don

What are you saying.

Of course Torch is a serious navy. They're in a state of war.

The Nate's were envisioned as a starting point.
Something Torch could afford.
Something they could learn in.
Something that was theirs.
And something that could be actually used in the type of warfare they were planning at the time.

Those first three points, they are going to be in the thinking if a lot of systems that will now be looking to their own defence.