SPOILER end of the MA

Annachie wrote:Lets put it this way.

Terekov's first patrol around the Talbot sector.

Of the planets he visited, how many war ships did he encounter?

Nothing worth mentioning.

How many of the planets mentioned having any?
Same.

There's plenty of systems that have nothing but LAC's, and would be happy with better ones.

He visited Rembrandt, too - and Rembrandt had at least some CAs or CLs, if memory serves. As founding member of the RTU they needed at least some war ships to protect their traders against the occasional pirat. Even, then the merchant ships had some energy-weapons, too.

True, compared with Manticore, these vessels were nothing to write home about - but they were there. And Rembrandt could be regarded as the exception to prove the rule ... because Rembrandt and the other RTU-worlds were the only ones in the Talbott-cluster with something like a pot to piss in - economically spoken.

Sigs wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
No, you are missing the point that the majority of industry, even in Verge systems, is located in space and that means infrastructure in their asteroid belt.

So then most of their industry would be outside the hyper limit?

Unless you have only a single planet to defend, with nothing of value located elsewhere in the system, you need hyper-capable ships. And saying that you are defending only against pirates is not an optimal situation is this means you are planning on defending against only singletons, you need hyper capability.

How common would squadron level attack be? More to the point how likely would even a squadron level pirate be to attack a system with 30-40 LAC's and a number of Frigates?

What I'm saying is that if you are a star system with infrastructure to protect, it may have a component outside the HL specifically because many star systems' asteroid belts (and in still other cases, gas giants which are mined for hydrogen and other gasses) lie that far from the primary. I am not saying this will be the case in all cases; I am simply saying that it will often be a consideration.

I am also saying that if you are talking about serious system protection (as opposed to "Well, it won't work very well but its the most we can afford/build out of our in-system resources") non-hyper-capable units are at such a serious disadvantage that no one should be buying them.

To reiterate: unless you have a single point source which is likely to require defense, sublight vessels are actually the more expensive route because you'll need enough hulls to cover all points pretty much simultaneously. If there's any sort of dispersed infrastructure outside the limit you cannot defend it effectively without a hyper generator because you can't keep up with an attacker who maneuvers against you. If you have multiple points inside the limit that need to be protected, you can defend them against attack with sublight units, but in many cases a smart attacker with hyper capability will use microjumops to suck defensive units out of position and least-time approaches to multiple targets will mean there are multiple threat axes to defend against. Which means you really have to have sufficient defensive firepower on station at every objective at the same time, and that means more total hulls for the same defensive capability.

Verge systems who can't afford better than sublight LACs will often find themselves in the position of the system defense navies in Shadow of Saganami. There's not much they can do about deep penetration recon incursions by units with hyper capability scouting targets; they can't protect infrastructure outside the limit; and they can protect incoming freighters only if they have enough LACs available to hold an escort force at a designated arrival point on the limit and attach them for close escort for the trip from that point to their destination in-system. And even then, recall that FTL freighters often do not hit exactly on their arrival coordinates because (1) astrogation in hyper can be tricky over very short or very long voyages (for different reasons) and that (2) as a consequence merchant skippers try to give themselves generous safety margins by coming in well short of the limit. That increases the hemisphere those STL LACs have to cover against an attack.

Verge systems with low bank budgets and limited domestic shipbuilding capability will build STL ships because that's the best they can do (and in many cases this will mean their "system defense force" is purely symbolic [and they know it]), but a system which is buying ships from someone else probably isn't going to pour money down a rat hole by buying larger numbers of less capable ships. Competent system defense planners who realistically expect to use ships as an effective component in that defense will not settle for less than the most capable units they can get.

ywing14 wrote:The way I read your first point it basically ignores what RFC stated about Verge Infrastructure. The systems you're talking about would be the exception not the rule. To me designing and building an export non hyper capable frigate which will likely not be relevant to the majority of the Verge's situation doesn't make sense from an economic standpoint.

Where is most of the industry(Manufacturing, ship building, repair, warehouses, housing, etc etc etc...) is it in orbit about an inhabited planet or is it outside the hyper limit? If the primary industry of a system is resource extraction and they have dozens of facilities outside the hyper limit then by all means that changes the equation but at the same time for a system like Manticore and I would assume the majority of systems put their most important industrial facilities in orbit e.g. Hephaestus.

If a system has most of it's infrastructure inside the limit and only a small % outside the limit then they don't NEED to have hyper capable units

You're 100% correct that many of these systems don't have navies but then again some of them probably did before the FF moved in. But mostly, Verge, Shell, and Core worlds will have to do what most countries have done in this world and that's build a navy, create a tradition, and learn through trial and error. Given what's happened to Beowulf, Manticore, and RoH it think it's unlikely they could come up with the personnel to provide training cadres to very many worlds.

And I agree with you, at the same time the it will take plenty of time so starting small e.g. LAC's and FF's. Maybe 10, 15 or 20 years down the road the navy in question might be ready for action but they have to start from somewhere and why not start from a place where the GA risks the least amount of problems.

Finally, the GA should not dictate to worlds it's not at war with what it can or can's spend its money on.

True, but it can dictate who it sells what kind of weapons to. If a verge system decides to buy BC's and SD's by stripping all of it's resources should the GA sell them those ships? Knowing full well that the system in question has nothing of value that requires BC's for protection let alone SD's. The GA's job is to guide the new systems and give them basic level of security while they build up, their job is not to sell anyone and everyone weapons that they don't need for legitimate reasons and will likely end up being pirates or end up used to conquer their neighbours.

If the GA felt that their vessels would be used for nefarious purposes they should just chose not to sell them to that buyer.

What if they were not sure? Give them the ability to prove they can be trusted with hyper capable warships, don't just make them a target for pirates.

Given that many of these worlds have spent that last 100-200 years under the domination of the Frontier Security and the Transtellars, I can see why many of them might be interested in spending a high percentage of their GDP on defense.

And the GA should encourage them to maintain anti-piracy navies while investing everything else into improving their economy, industry, living standard and education. Having 1000 verge systems and everyone one of them invests 50-80% of their GDP in defence means those systems will be in exactly the same place 50 years down the road or much worse off. Even if those verge systems were to invest everything they have into defence they will not be able to resist any serious challenge from core and/or shell worlds so what they need is defence in their hands, assistance from the GA and Honorverse equivalent of the Monroe Doctrine whereby the GA tells the core and shell to keep their hands off of the Verge systems. Give the verge systems the means to protect themselves from pirates, give the verge systems the breathing space to build up their industries and economies and see those markets opening to Manticore and Haven in the long term.

I don't necessarily think they'd be wrong to do so.

They most definitely would be, the GA's technological advantage would not last forever and when it disappears they will not be in such a position to provide the verge with protection from the League, and any successor states so the GA should be encouraging the verge to build up and expand their industries as quickly as they can so that 20 or 30 years down the road they can actually be able to fend for themselves. Crippling them now with heavy military expenditures means that when the GA looses the technological advantage and maybe even the numerical advantage the verge would have neither the military might to resist any incursion nor would it have the ability to expand their militaries.

ywing14 wrote:I don't understand your focus on LACs. It is mentioned in the books that multiple Core worlds maintain significant SDFs similar to Beowulf in size.

1)That's assuming those SDF's left the League.
2) They may be the exception not the rule.

If the league sheds 500 core and shel worlds and only 5-10 % of them have SDF's then the other 90-95% have to start from somewhere. Maybe they get some personnel from the SLN or maybe they don't, starting off with LAC's is alone easier and quicker then starting out with SD's.

That means multiple SDs.

If I remember correctly very few SDF's had any SD's at all. you can safely assume that a small number of systems maintained their own SDF's but you can't assume the majority of systems maintained significant SDF's with DD's let alone SD's.

That means multiple planets have already and can now build SDs

You are assuming. They can be buying the SD's from the same yards that the League purchases their SD's from. How many SDF's can justify the expenditures to develop shipyards and all the logistics associated with those yards when they have 10,000 SD's of the SLN? Trying to convince taxpayers that your system needs shipyards so it can build it's own SD's might be a stretch, after all no individual system will be able to take on the SLN and anything that can get through the SLN will likely not be too worried about a single SDF and its abilities.

Second, where is the GA going to get the yard space to build these export SD(P)s.

Bolthole, all the RoH systems that can build them. Haven has the abilities to probably build 500-800 SD's at a time, if the core and shell are paying I don't see why the GA should not use those yards to prop up the Havenite economy.

\ That leaves the RoH which can't even manufacture Manticore tech at the moment.

Lucky for us the export versions likely won't be RMN type of ships...

I don't think they care about building ships or giving ships to anyone else at the moment. I think they care about being able to build their own. Also the entire SL knows the GA destroyed SL SDs with CAs easily... would be kind of patronizing to give them back for the Core to use.

That is my point, wether you are giving a core system captured SLN SD's, RHN SD's or build them new once they still will see it as being sold obsolete equipment. This right there will force more of them to invest in domestic shipyards and r and d.

You see to forget that the GA destroyed most of the reserve so there really isn't anything to give from there.

When exactly did they destroy the reserve?

Most of the Core are at the same basic level of technology as the GA. It's not as expensive as you think. Some of the worlds have been around for 1000 years and have the Space infrastructure to go with it. It wouldn't be that hard for them to move to construct their own vessels.

It would be if they are starting from scratch.

Addressing point 2; So the citizens of these planets would probably prefer their planetary government to spend 100s of billions of dollars to purchase second rate GA equipment as opposed to spending that same money at home to build that capacity in there own system along with all the benefits that go along with it.

Yep. They have to design the ships from nothing, they have to design, engineer and build the ships from scratch with likely very little experience, when they start from scratch initially they will likely produce subpar equipment even by SLN standards. This would be very time consuming and very expensive upfront with no guarantee that you can compete in the arms market and one of the biggest benefits of having the ability to build SD's is being able to sell those SD's. If you have the option of being from the GA or building a much lower quality ship at least initially what would you choose?

How many of the Core Worlds of the SL fought against the GA.... Well that seems like a rather redundant question to me. ALL OF THEM! Since it was the SOLARIAN LEAGUE THEY WERE OR ARE ALL MEMBERS OF!!!!

There is a difference between actively fighting someone, and having your name associated with a war. Many League members were mere spectators trying to stay out of the way.

The same Solarian League who's navy attacked the GA in multiple locations.

If I remember correctly the League member systems didn't get much of a say in that either since the decisions were made by a handful of people who answered to no-one.

They were part of the system and chose to take no action. They allowed people like the current Mandarins to act accordingly and chose not to oppose them. Their lack of control over the Mandarins doesn't absolve them of the Mandarins actions.

But it doesn't make them enemies either. Looking at them as enemies will make them so in the long run.

What's secret about the SP(D)....we lets see... I don't know....everything.... Sure the SL knows that it's a ship that spits out pods. THAT'S LITERALLY ALL THEY KNOW. They don't know how the stealth works

Which part of export didn't you understand? The export versions will likely not include such fine things as FTL, multistage missiles etc etc etc...

the pod deployment system works, how the fire control works, how the ftl comm system works....

Export version... no FTL comm system, slightly better then SLN fire control and I'm pretty sure people would be able to figure out how the pod deployment system works.

I could go on and on.

Please do.

If you can't see the errors in your own post I don't know how else to point them out to you.

You can start by understanding that you can give someone an SD(P) without giving them all the other little secrets. Export version means something different to you I guess.

Knowing that an SD(P) is an SD built around a hollow core is not the same as knowing how to build it.

Sure is, Haven figured it out in a couple of years, how complicated could it be?

It took the Manties like 16 months to design it and that was helped along by having a pod deployment system created for the Q ships.

And it took Haven slightly longer to design it simply by witnessing those ships blowing their navy to bits... you know kinda like the entire galaxy witnessing the SLN being blown to bits over and over again.

You make it sound like a child could design an SD(P). Other countries to it to the USA and Russia all the time. Hell China with Russian jet engines and North Korea with some of their SAM tech. Why wouldn't the same thing happen in Honorverse?

I don't know if you are arguing against me or trying to make my point...

The RoH did it was the Mantie Tech they got from the Erwhonese.

No they didn't, Erwhone left the Manticore alliance way to late for their tech transfer to help in the design phase of the SD(P)'s way too late even for the initial build phase of anything that fought in the first year of the war.

Your last argument..... Giving SD(P)s out to people just makes it easier to figure out the weaknesses in the SD(P)s.

And not giving them SD(P)'s covers up that weakness how? When everyone and their mother will be developing their own SD(P)'s and researching military tech they will discover any weaknesses pretty quickly.

Especially since there is no way possible the GA will be the only people manufacturing SD(P)s.

since at the moment they are the only group that ACTUALLY has SD(P) I think it is highly likely that they are the only once now and keeping the total number of manufacturers low works in the GA's favour rather than the other way around.

ywing14 wrote:

Sigs wrote:
You might be worried about territorial integrity and national defence but the options would be significantly different for Tanzania when compared to Germany, France or the UK. Tanzania might want destroyers, subs and carriers but maybe all they can afford is patrol boats and wanting and needing are different and should be weight accordingly.

You build or buy what you can afford but that doesn't mean a bunch of LACs are better than a smaller number of hyper capable destroyers.

In some cases they are in others they are not... also depends on the mission. Having 40 LAC's gives you the ability to be in 40 places at once, escorting merchant ships, protecting your infrastructure, patrolling your space, protecting your inner system etc... having 5 DD's gives you the ability to be in 5 paces at once.


If the situation calls for destroyers, then by all means give the people destroyers, but if the situation doesn't require destroyers... don't hand them out like they are candy.

runsforcelery wrote:
What I'm saying is that if you are a star system with infrastructure to protect, it may have a component outside the HL specifically because many star systems' asteroid belts (and in still other cases, gas giants which are mined for hydrogen and other gasses) lie that far from the primary. I am not saying this will be the case in all cases; I am simply saying that it will often be a consideration.

And my point is that the GA should not be giving everyone CL's and DD's just because some may actually need them.

I am also saying that if you are talking about serious system protection (as opposed to "Well, it won't work very well but its the most we can afford/build out of our in-system resources") non-hyper-capable units are at such a serious disadvantage that no one should be buying them.

I am not talking about serious system protection here, I am taking about making those systems in the verge unattractive to pirates and giving those without a navy the chance to develop something. Giving those systems the ability to protect themselves from pirates and with the improvement of their economy the ability to expand the navy. For those that don't need the hyper capable ships it would not be an advantage or disadvantage, if a serious attack happens(CA or above or mixed squadron of DD/CL/CA mix), wether the system has 40 LAC's or 5 destroyers won't matter as the attackers mean business. What I am suggesting is for the verge to use the time that the GA will have the technological and military advantage to good use and build up their economies, not prepare for war because anything that would be considered serious system protection in my view means system defence from invasion which is not what I am suggesting.

Verge systems who can't afford better than sublight LACs will often find themselves in the position of the system defense navies in Shadow of Saganami. There's not much they can do about deep penetration recon incursions by units with hyper capability scouting targets; they can't protect infrastructure outside the limit; and they can protect incoming freighters only if they have enough LACs available to hold an escort force at a designated arrival point on the limit and attach them for close escort for the trip from that point to their destination in-system. And even then, recall that FTL freighters often do not hit exactly on their arrival coordinates because (1) astrogation in hyper can be tricky over very short or very long voyages (for different reasons) and that (2) as a consequence merchant skippers try to give themselves generous safety margins by coming in well short of the limit. That increases the hemisphere those STL LACs have to cover against an attack.

Just having those sub-light ships should be deterrent enough. If a pirate knows that a particular system has a small but efficient and highly motivated navy that should discourage them. I doubt mane pirates would go into a system and risk damage to their ship because they would know that even in the even of momentary absence of SDF ships won't be enough to overcome the risk of severe damage when those ships finally make it there.

Competent system defense planners who realistically expect to use ships as an effective component in that defense will not settle for less than the most capable units they can get.

Maybe if they were working in a vacuum,but if the GA stands between the verge and the shell/core, and makes it clear they won't tolerate empire building most systems would not have too much to worry about other then pirates.


To me having 40 ships half as good as an average pirate ship is much better then having 5 ships that are more mobile and twice as powerful. Inside the hyper limit they have the same restrictions as LAC's and outside the hyper limit they are only a few ships. Having 5 pieces of Realestate outside the of the hyper limit to protect with 2 DD's or having 5 pieces of real estate outside of the hyper limit to protect with 10 LAC's I would choose the LAC's. With the LAC's 100% of my infrastructure is lightly protected vs 40% of my infrastructure moderately protected.

To address when did they destroy the reserve


Central Command

NSG Able-One

Naval Station Ganymede

Sol System

Solarian League




He was still alive.

That was Maridors Haeckle’s first incredulous thought. He was alive.

He felt himself inhale, heard the same sounds of surprise sweeping through the rest of Central Command, and turned disbelievingly to his chief of staff.

Pataloeshti was still staring at the plot, trying to understand why they were alive, and Haeckle gave himself a shake.

“Status,” he heard someone else say, using his voice.

“We’re—” Captain Tsukatani began, then stopped. He bent over his own terminal, tapping keys, then straightened and turned to face Haeckle.

“Admiral,” he said very carefully, “the main platforms didn’t take a single hit. We lost two destroyers and a heavy cruiser, but I think that was a mistake in their targeting.”

“A mistake?” Pataloeshti repeated.

“Yes, Sir—a mistake. They didn’t hit any of our other active ships, and with all those battlecruisers and superdreadnoughts in orbit, I don’t see how they could have missed them all unless they’d tried really hard.”

“But, in that case, what—?”

“It looks like they took out at least ninety percent of the superdreadnoughts in Reserve One.”

“The Reserve?” This time it was Haeckle, and Tsukatani nodded.

“They have to have done it on purpose, Sir. Not only that, they punched their birds right through our defensive envelope to reach them, and they didn’t have to do that. They brought them into range of our CMs and every one of our platforms’ point defense clusters, and with their laserheads’ standoff range, they could’ve stayed entirely out of our counter-missile envelope, far less laser range, if they’d wanted to.”

“A message,” Haeckle said softly. “They were sending a message.”

His brain raced. He hadn’t even thought about the thousands of obsolescent superdreadnoughts parked in the twenty-four, equidistantly spaced clusters riding Jupiter orbit with Ganymede. Why should he have? If the Manties had proved one thing, it was that those pre-pod fossils were deathtraps waiting to happen. They knew that even better than the SLN, so why in God’s name should they have even considered wasting missile fire on ships which were already inevitably destined for the breakers?

Because it let them prove that they could have killed all of our active ships just as easily. The realization went through him like a dagger of ice. It was a demonstration of just how defenseless we are. And proof that they can snuff out NSG anytime they damned well feel like it.

He stood there, staring at Tsukatani, then sucked in a sudden breath.

“Abort the attack!” he snapped.

Tsukatani blinked, then darted a look at the tactical board.

“We can’t, Sir,” he said. “We’re seventeen and a half minutes from attack range.”

Haeckle swallowed hard. It would have taken nineteen minutes for the self-destruct command to catch up with the Cataphracts. And that meant the Manties were going to think he’d missed their message.

He turned sickly back to the plot, watching the icons.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:The way I read your first point it basically ignores what RFC stated about Verge Infrastructure. The systems you're talking about would be the exception not the rule. To me designing and building an export non hyper capable frigate which will likely not be relevant to the majority of the Verge's situation doesn't make sense from an economic standpoint.

Where is most of the industry(Manufacturing, ship building, repair, warehouses, housing, etc etc etc...) is it in orbit about an inhabited planet or is it outside the hyper limit? If the primary industry of a system is resource extraction and they have dozens of facilities outside the hyper limit then by all means that changes the equation but at the same time for a system like Manticore and I would assume the majority of systems put their most important industrial facilities in orbit e.g. Hephaestus.

If a system has most of it's infrastructure inside the limit and only a small % outside the limit then they don't NEED to have hyper capable units

You're 100% correct that many of these systems don't have navies but then again some of them probably did before the FF moved in. But mostly, Verge, Shell, and Core worlds will have to do what most countries have done in this world and that's build a navy, create a tradition, and learn through trial and error. Given what's happened to Beowulf, Manticore, and RoH it think it's unlikely they could come up with the personnel to provide training cadres to very many worlds.

And I agree with you, at the same time the it will take plenty of time so starting small e.g. LAC's and FF's. Maybe 10, 15 or 20 years down the road the navy in question might be ready for action but they have to start from somewhere and why not start from a place where the GA risks the least amount of problems.

Finally, the GA should not dictate to worlds it's not at war with what it can or can's spend its money on.

True, but it can dictate who it sells what kind of weapons to. If a verge system decides to buy BC's and SD's by stripping all of it's resources should the GA sell them those ships? Knowing full well that the system in question has nothing of value that requires BC's for protection let alone SD's. The GA's job is to guide the new systems and give them basic level of security while they build up, their job is not to sell anyone and everyone weapons that they don't need for legitimate reasons and will likely end up being pirates or end up used to conquer their neighbours.

If the GA felt that their vessels would be used for nefarious purposes they should just chose not to sell them to that buyer.

What if they were not sure? Give them the ability to prove they can be trusted with hyper capable warships, don't just make them a target for pirates.

Given that many of these worlds have spent that last 100-200 years under the domination of the Frontier Security and the Transtellars, I can see why many of them might be interested in spending a high percentage of their GDP on defense.

And the GA should encourage them to maintain anti-piracy navies while investing everything else into improving their economy, industry, living standard and education. Having 1000 verge systems and everyone one of them invests 50-80% of their GDP in defence means those systems will be in exactly the same place 50 years down the road or much worse off. Even if those verge systems were to invest everything they have into defence they will not be able to resist any serious challenge from core and/or shell worlds so what they need is defence in their hands, assistance from the GA and Honorverse equivalent of the Monroe Doctrine whereby the GA tells the core and shell to keep their hands off of the Verge systems. Give the verge systems the means to protect themselves from pirates, give the verge systems the breathing space to build up their industries and economies and see those markets opening to Manticore and Haven in the long term.

I don't necessarily think they'd be wrong to do so.

They most definitely would be, the GA's technological advantage would not last forever and when it disappears they will not be in such a position to provide the verge with protection from the League, and any successor states so the GA should be encouraging the verge to build up and expand their industries as quickly as they can so that 20 or 30 years down the road they can actually be able to fend for themselves. Crippling them now with heavy military expenditures means that when the GA looses the technological advantage and maybe even the numerical advantage the verge would have neither the military might to resist any incursion nor would it have the ability to expand their militaries.

I am again just going to direct you to RFC's previous posts about what's better, what isn't, and why hyper capable ships would be better. But if you're so wedded to the idea of LAC and Frigates they should just build a bunch of the Nat Turner Class Frigates they built for the Kingdom of Torch, which are not only Hyper Capable but also well armed and likely not much more expensive than a regular LAC.

Again the GA doesn't have the people to support all these planets and since most of the Verge Systems have over a billion people I'm sure they can come up with a way to crew the vessels and train their people.

I'll just again reiterate you can't tell worlds how to spend there money. Grayson is a great example. It was spending a third of it's GDP on defense prior to joining the alliance. It had a good reason for doing so. Manticore didn't tell the Graysons what they could and couldn't spend their money on. The GA's job is not to be Honorverse's Moral, Economic, and Fun police. You separated my two sentence in your post but they really go together. You can't tell Systems what to do you just don't sell them things you think they won't use properly. Do mistakes happen? Sure, just asked the Russians I'm sure they regret giving separatists in the Ukraine that SAM they used to shoot down the airliner. But things like that happen when sell/give away weapons. I don't know where you got your 1000 systems 50%-80% economic figures from. The fact of the matter is we have no idea what any system economies in the verge, shell, or protectorates are going to look like Some will be like San Miguel and Rembrant others will be like Dresden and Nunico. Both were verge systems both maintained navies with hyper capable ships which I'm sure could have afforded to build or purchase CL/CAs possible more if they wanted to.

Issuing a Monroe Doctrine statement is the opposite of what they need to do. The Monroe Doctrine sounded great in theory pretty much every country in central and south America came to resent the USA for issuing it. And Europeans and South/Central American still bring it up to this day with negative connotations. That's precisely what would happen to the GA. Next thing you'll say is it's the GA's Manifest Destiny to control the entire Verge. Verge systems would likely get tired of the GA constantly meddling in their affairs. Honors already told the SL they've more or less gave to permit worlds to secede from the SL and they'd destroy any SLN ship not in an SL system in one month.

The GA should certainly be encouraging economic expansion in the verge. They can do this by encouraging investments and low interest loans. Hell the breaking of the transtellars alone should finally loosen a lot of economies. But purchasing vessels from GA (if it is permitted) should be well within these worlds right. Manticore shouldn't tell them how to spend their own money. The Verge and the Protectorates aren't looking for another Master and the GA shouldn't become one.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:I don't understand your focus on LACs. It is mentioned in the books that multiple Core worlds maintain significant SDFs similar to Beowulf in size.

1)That's assuming those SDF's left the League.
2) They may be the exception not the rule.

If the league sheds 500 core and shel worlds and only 5-10 % of them have SDF's then the other 90-95% have to start from somewhere. Maybe they get some personnel from the SLN or maybe they don't, starting off with LAC's is alone easier and quicker then starting out with SD's.

That means multiple SDs.

If I remember correctly very few SDF's had any SD's at all. you can safely assume that a small number of systems maintained their own SDF's but you can't assume the majority of systems maintained significant SDF's with DD's let alone SD's.

That means multiple planets have already and can now build SDs

You are assuming. They can be buying the SD's from the same yards that the League purchases their SD's from. How many SDF's can justify the expenditures to develop shipyards and all the logistics associated with those yards when they have 10,000 SD's of the SLN? Trying to convince taxpayers that your system needs shipyards so it can build it's own SD's might be a stretch, after all no individual system will be able to take on the SLN and anything that can get through the SLN will likely not be too worried about a single SDF and its abilities.

Second, where is the GA going to get the yard space to build these export SD(P)s.

Bolthole, all the RoH systems that can build them. Haven has the abilities to probably build 500-800 SD's at a time, if the core and shell are paying I don't see why the GA should not use those yards to prop up the Havenite economy.

\ That leaves the RoH which can't even manufacture Manticore tech at the moment.

Lucky for us the export versions likely won't be RMN type of ships...

I don't think they care about building ships or giving ships to anyone else at the moment. I think they care about being able to build their own. Also the entire SL knows the GA destroyed SL SDs with CAs easily... would be kind of patronizing to give them back for the Core to use.

That is my point, wether you are giving a core system captured SLN SD's, RHN SD's or build them new once they still will see it as being sold obsolete equipment. This right there will force more of them to invest in domestic shipyards and r and d.

You see to forget that the GA destroyed most of the reserve so there really isn't anything to give from there.

When exactly did they destroy the reserve?

Most of the Core are at the same basic level of technology as the GA. It's not as expensive as you think. Some of the worlds have been around for 1000 years and have the Space infrastructure to go with it. It wouldn't be that hard for them to move to construct their own vessels.

It would be if they are starting from scratch.

Addressing point 2; So the citizens of these planets would probably prefer their planetary government to spend 100s of billions of dollars to purchase second rate GA equipment as opposed to spending that same money at home to build that capacity in there own system along with all the benefits that go along with it.

Yep. They have to design the ships from nothing, they have to design, engineer and build the ships from scratch with likely very little experience, when they start from scratch initially they will likely produce subpar equipment even by SLN standards. This would be very time consuming and very expensive upfront with no guarantee that you can compete in the arms market and one of the biggest benefits of having the ability to build SD's is being able to sell those SD's. If you have the option of being from the GA or building a much lower quality ship at least initially what would you choose?

How many of the Core Worlds of the SL fought against the GA.... Well that seems like a rather redundant question to me. ALL OF THEM! Since it was the SOLARIAN LEAGUE THEY WERE OR ARE ALL MEMBERS OF!!!!

There is a difference between actively fighting someone, and having your name associated with a war. Many League members were mere spectators trying to stay out of the way.

The same Solarian League who's navy attacked the GA in multiple locations.

If I remember correctly the League member systems didn't get much of a say in that either since the decisions were made by a handful of people who answered to no-one.

They were part of the system and chose to take no action. They allowed people like the current Mandarins to act accordingly and chose not to oppose them. Their lack of control over the Mandarins doesn't absolve them of the Mandarins actions.

But it doesn't make them enemies either. Looking at them as enemies will make them so in the long run.

What's secret about the SP(D)....we lets see... I don't know....everything.... Sure the SL knows that it's a ship that spits out pods. THAT'S LITERALLY ALL THEY KNOW. They don't know how the stealth works

Which part of export didn't you understand? The export versions will likely not include such fine things as FTL, multistage missiles etc etc etc...

the pod deployment system works, how the fire control works, how the ftl comm system works....

Export version... no FTL comm system, slightly better then SLN fire control and I'm pretty sure people would be able to figure out how the pod deployment system works.

I could go on and on.

Please do.

If you can't see the errors in your own post I don't know how else to point them out to you.

You can start by understanding that you can give someone an SD(P) without giving them all the other little secrets. Export version means something different to you I guess.

Knowing that an SD(P) is an SD built around a hollow core is not the same as knowing how to build it.

Sure is, Haven figured it out in a couple of years, how complicated could it be?

It took the Manties like 16 months to design it and that was helped along by having a pod deployment system created for the Q ships.

And it took Haven slightly longer to design it simply by witnessing those ships blowing their navy to bits... you know kinda like the entire galaxy witnessing the SLN being blown to bits over and over again.

You make it sound like a child could design an SD(P). Other countries to it to the USA and Russia all the time. Hell China with Russian jet engines and North Korea with some of their SAM tech. Why wouldn't the same thing happen in Honorverse?

I don't know if you are arguing against me or trying to make my point...

The RoH did it was the Mantie Tech they got from the Erwhonese.

No they didn't, Erwhone left the Manticore alliance way to late for their tech transfer to help in the design phase of the SD(P)'s way too late even for the initial build phase of anything that fought in the first year of the war.

Your last argument..... Giving SD(P)s out to people just makes it easier to figure out the weaknesses in the SD(P)s.

And not giving them SD(P)'s covers up that weakness how? When everyone and their mother will be developing their own SD(P)'s and researching military tech they will discover any weaknesses pretty quickly.

Especially since there is no way possible the GA will be the only people manufacturing SD(P)s.

since at the moment they are the only group that ACTUALLY has SD(P) I think it is highly likely that they are the only once now and keeping the total number of manufacturers low works in the GA's favour rather than the other way around.

I don't understand what 1 even means. All I said was that some Core Worlds had System Defense Forces it doesn't matter whether they are still in the SL or not. They still have them. They still have the means to care for them and build them if not in massive numbers in some numbers.

If we use your made up 500 number at 10% that is still over 50 Systems with Navies. Still 50 Worlds that can help other systems train people. All of the Core Worlds have significant economies. I am sure they can maintain something other than LACs.

I'm pretty sure Core Worlds can justify a lot of things. But the Core Worlds have to decide if they are going to leave the SL or not. Because if they leave the SL then they most assuredly need to build their own military/navy. They've just got to look at what happened to the Cachalot System for motivation. If the Core World decides to stay in the league they'll probably have to cough up federal tax money to support a reformed SLN since it won't be able to draw upon the protectorate fees anymore. But the Core Worlds are heavily industrialized as it is and I am not saying they need to build some massive shipyard capable of building 10,000 SD(s). Something modest that has 5 slips would work just fine. Or they could do what Grayson was doing during the first Havenite conflict and float pieces into place and then build some docking around them and then put the pieces together that way. I'm not saying that each Core World needs to build 200 SDs. Maintaining a Squadron each of SDs, CAs/CLs, and DDs shouldn't be impossible for them.


I don't know what Bolthole and All of the RoH systems even means. We don't have a clue how many yards are in RoH. We know there isn't one at Lovat. All of the current ships being built will go to GA members so it's unlikely they'll be in a position to free up yard space for a while. Designing export versions will also take time which just adds on to how long it'll all take.

I don't think you get what I am driving at. The GA wants the League to break up into smaller pieces. It wants these smaller pieces to develop their own identities and what not. That's the best way to ensure it'll stay that way. Developing their own military forces, ships, etc will help them form a separate identities from the SL. The GA needs competition all you do by selling all these things is encourage stagnation. There is nothing wrong with other star nations competing with the GA.

I don't know why you think they'd build subpar vessels right off the bat and why you're assuming they can't build vessels. Technodyne was already experimenting with PODs prior to the conflict with the GA. Beowulf was able to laydown missile lines within three months of joining the GA and produce Keyhole platforms etc. Yeah they didn't design these things but they had the Tech capable of doing it. Will it take longer because they don't have the designs? Most definitely, but it is well within the rest of the Core Worlds abilities if they want to. And they can just hire people with experience building or designing them. Furthermore I disagree with your assertion that one of the biggest benefits of being able to build SDs is the ability to sell them. The biggest benefit is the fact that you have the SDs. Where in honorverse have we observed anyone selling SDs to anyone? SKM gave some captured ones to Grayson. I don't recall anywhere else. the closest is Erwhon maybe building them for MARS. But SEM isn't selling them to anyone, and neither was the RoH or Andies. Sell them 20 years from now when they are obsolete sure.

you wrote "There is a difference between actively fighting someone, and having your name associated with a war. Many League members were mere spectators trying to stay out of the way."

Please elaborate on this? What's the difference?? This statement is absurd. It would be like Vermont saying to Canada you can't blame us because the Federal Government invaded you through New York. If a world is part of the SL and the SLN invaded another system how are they not responsible?? Those worlds had options Just like Beowulf and Hypatia... Secede. If they didn't then they just as guilty as everyone else. What about all the worlds who voted to censure Beowulf over the Termius incident. If that's not complicity that I don't know what is.


I understand a lot about export versions of things I just don't think you do. What you're talking about is designing an entirely brand new ship... Not giving them multistage missiles. That's actually the one thing the SLN has now. You're right they probably could figure the rail system. While they are at it make them figure out how to build the new composite armors Manticore created. I don't even know what slightly better control is since a Saganami C Class ship can control more missiles than a Scientist. It isn't a simple matter of hey here's an export version of a vessel. You literally want them to design a brand new ship for the SLN. I'm telling you no one in the GA would ever even consider doing that. Not the way the situation is right now. 10-20-30 years down the road when they've gotten a better feel on the various systems then maybe that's a different story. But other than maybe the environmental system what is not classified on the Medusas?? Maybe some of the glass windows??

The reason the RoH was able to duplicate things is because they got lots of useful data home to figure out what was occurring. The SLN hasn't really gotten the same. Most of their forces got so chewed up they really don't have a ton of useful data. Then they had 4 years of peace with the SEM to duplicate what they saw. This doesn't even take into account they spent 8-10 years dealing with incremental increases in SKM hardware. The SLN get their butt handed to them in less than a year.

Yes not giving them Manticoran SD(P)s makes it much harder for them to figure out it's weakness by the simple fact that they don't have an actual piece of Manticoran hardware to examine. Yes, they can develop things on their own but they won't be the same as the GA's ships. So will they have ideas about weaknesses? Sure, but those will be assumptions.

Germany is perfectly capable of building and supporting an effective military. The reason they have a grand total of 4 fully combat capable fighters, no working subs and under a hundred fully operational tanks is that they don’t want to spend the money to do it because the national leadership feels their is no real military threat.

That’s what most of the core worlds are like.