SPOILER end of the MA

ywing14 wrote:
I don't foresee the GA selling SD(P)s to anyone. I think that would be a terrible decision.

I don't think SD(P)'s in and of themselves are unique, I think many core and some shell systems might be able to build SD(P)'s of their own but they will likely be little better then the SD's the SLN have. I am in no way suggesting selling SD(P)'s that are even remotely close to GA lowest technological capabilities I am suggesting export versions that improve on the SD design but don't give away too many secrets. Or if determined that SD(P)'s are to much of a problem then set the BB(P) as the upper most unit for export and design a BB(P).

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:
I'll be honest Sigs, I don't know enough about crewing hyper capable/nonhyper capable vessels. However, I don't feel like the maintenance aspect is significantly different. I also don't think they are significantly different to operate. That's not to say from a money standpoint it may be better go with LACs since they are much cheaper and the ones the GA are building are much more capable. But my gut feeling is that if you're going to build anything bigger it makes more sense to make it hyper capable.

Frigate should be the largest non hyper capable unit in a fleet, if a system needs DD/CL-SD(P)'s then it would make sense for them to be hyper capable. But for verge systems there is little need for anything larger then a frigate except under some very unique circumstances.

I disagree, you're completely ignoring RFC's comment about microjumping etc. That's not a very unique tactic. I don't see why Verge systems wouldn't build/purchase DDs and CL/CAs. Plenty of places in the Quadrant had these prior to entry in the SEM and they were pretty hard scrabble. Hyper Capable units are just tactically more flexible. They also allow you to project force.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:
I don't foresee the GA selling SD(P)s to anyone. I think that would be a terrible decision.

I don't think SD(P)'s in and of themselves are unique, I think many core and some shell systems might be able to build SD(P)'s of their own but they will likely be little better then the SD's the SLN have. I am in no way suggesting selling SD(P)'s that are even remotely close to GA lowest technological capabilities I am suggesting export versions that improve on the SD design but don't give away too many secrets. Or if determined that SD(P)'s are to much of a problem then set the BB(P) as the upper most unit for export and design a BB(P).

I think SD(P)s are unique since they are rather radical departure from conventional SDs. That's not me saying they'd be difficult for the Core worlds to make. But I don't think it benefits the SEM to sell even an export version of them.

One, I don't think they've got the yard space, two, it would force all of these worlds to invest and develop their own vessels giving the GA's R&D more time to expand their technological lead, and three, they've just beaten the SL. Why would you want to sell even an export version of one of the vessels that you used to beat them. I don't think the GA should be giving away any secrets until they know the new SL constitution is going to stick and that'll take decades.

ywing14 wrote:
I disagree, you're completely ignoring RFC's comment about microjumping etc.

And you are disregarding the fact that most systems in the verge will not have sufficient infrastructure outside the hyper limit to make having hyper capable units a requirement. If a system has only one or two assets outside of the hyper limit then having a handful of LAC's permanently deployed there would make sense rather than having the ability to chase someone to places where your industry is not located.

That's not a very unique tactic. I don't see why Verge systems wouldn't build/purchase DDs and CL/CAs. Plenty of places in the Quadrant had these prior to entry in the SEM and they were pretty hard scrabble. Hyper Capable units are just tactically more flexible. They also allow you to project force.

I don't know how many verge systems there are, it might be 100 or it might be several thousand but either way it doesn't matter. In many of those systems the situation might not be as stable as one may like, so giving someone the ability to engage in piracy of their own or invade their neighbours to me at least doesn't seem like the most beneficial idea.

Handing out 1,000 DD/CLs to systems knowing that there is a chance that 5%-10% might moonlight as pirates and another 5%-10% might end up as the fleet of a would be warlord isn't the best way to spend resources.


If a verge systems has a fleet with hyper capable units then upgrading the fleet with new units if the need arises makes sense, if a fleet has only LAC's, upgrading said fleet to DD's without waiting for that system to prove of their intentions does not make too much sense.

ywing14 wrote:
I think SD(P)s are unique since they are rather radical departure from conventional SDs. That's not me saying they'd be difficult for the Core worlds to make. But I don't think it benefits the SEM to sell even an export version of them.

Once Haven became acquainted with the SD(P)'s it didn't take them too long to design their own SD(P)'s and build them. Granted that in military terms all the core/shell systems will be starting at a lower technological level than Haven but even then they can still build SD(P)'s.

One, I don't think they've got the yard space, two, it would force all of these worlds to invest and develop their own vessels giving the GA's R&D more time to expand their technological lead, and three, they've just beaten the SL. Why would you want to sell even an export version of one of the vessels that you used to beat them. I don't think the GA should be giving away any secrets until they know the new SL constitution is going to stick and that'll take decades.

Selling export versions to former League core and shell worlds makes sense because many of those worlds will want to build a fleet for self defence without wanting to invest in all of the R&D to go with it or the infrastructure to build the SD(P)'s all on their own. As long as the GA is providing the ships many of those systems might be willing to forgo their own defence industry in favour of purchasing directly from the GA. If the GA were to decide not to sell SD(P)'s but rather sell a class of ships that is already obvious that is obsolete will force every core system to build their own research and development as well as shipyards, which means instead of having 170systems buying from the GA and relying on the GA for technological upgrades with 20-30 systems investing in defence industries you end up with 200 systems investing in their own industries. Thats 200 systems that can come up with their own technological wrinkle that negates a particular GA tech advantage and thats 200 potential competitors.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:
I disagree, you're completely ignoring RFC's comment about microjumping etc.

And you are disregarding the fact that most systems in the verge will not have sufficient infrastructure outside the hyper limit to make having hyper capable units a requirement. If a system has only one or two assets outside of the hyper limit then having a handful of LAC's permanently deployed there would make sense rather than having the ability to chase someone to places where your industry is not located.

That's not a very unique tactic. I don't see why Verge systems wouldn't build/purchase DDs and CL/CAs. Plenty of places in the Quadrant had these prior to entry in the SEM and they were pretty hard scrabble. Hyper Capable units are just tactically more flexible. They also allow you to project force.

I don't know how many verge systems there are, it might be 100 or it might be several thousand but either way it doesn't matter. In many of those systems the situation might not be as stable as one may like, so giving someone the ability to engage in piracy of their own or invade their neighbours to me at least doesn't seem like the most beneficial idea.

Handing out 1,000 DD/CLs to systems knowing that there is a chance that 5%-10% might moonlight as pirates and another 5%-10% might end up as the fleet of a would be warlord isn't the best way to spend resources.


If a verge systems has a fleet with hyper capable units then upgrading the fleet with new units if the need arises makes sense, if a fleet has only LAC's, upgrading said fleet to DD's without waiting for that system to prove of their intentions does not make too much sense.

You're talking about LACs I'm talking about DD and CLs. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to make anything in the DD to CL size that isn't hyper capable.

I didn't say the GA would hand ships away. I said the Verge systems would make/purchase their own. I'm sure some of them would be capable of doing it. Lots of Verge systems have infrastructure it was just owned, operated, and used by the Transtellars who controlled their planet. With a lot of Verge systems nationalizing this stuff I think it's difficult to argue what these systems can and can't do.

I'm not sure what you're saying in your last statement. I am not saying these verge systems need Fleets. I'm talking about a couple DD/CLs and probably a handful to a dozen LACs. That seems to be the standard in some of these areas.

Annachie wrote:Isn't most infrastructure that is outside the hyper limit the sort of thing that wouldn't interest a pirate?

Why would you care about a pirate micro jumping around the hyper limit? Surely they still have to find an incomming ship to make any money, and those tend to both arrive in consistant spaces and head straight for the hyper limit? Very few pirate attacks occur outside it.

There's two types of system defence here. Anti-piracy and anti-invader.

RFC's post is damn valid if you're worried about invaders, but not so much for anti-piracy.

No, all they want is the 200 cubic meters of gold. And 180 cubic meters of platinum, and 1800 cubic meters of silver. You know, worthless rocks.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:
I think SD(P)s are unique since they are rather radical departure from conventional SDs. That's not me saying they'd be difficult for the Core worlds to make. But I don't think it benefits the SEM to sell even an export version of them.

Once Haven became acquainted with the SD(P)'s it didn't take them too long to design their own SD(P)'s and build them. Granted that in military terms all the core/shell systems will be starting at a lower technological level than Haven but even then they can still build SD(P)'s.

One, I don't think they've got the yard space, two, it would force all of these worlds to invest and develop their own vessels giving the GA's R&D more time to expand their technological lead, and three, they've just beaten the SL. Why would you want to sell even an export version of one of the vessels that you used to beat them. I don't think the GA should be giving away any secrets until they know the new SL constitution is going to stick and that'll take decades.

Selling export versions to former League core and shell worlds makes sense because many of those worlds will want to build a fleet for self defence without wanting to invest in all of the R&D to go with it or the infrastructure to build the SD(P)'s all on their own. As long as the GA is providing the ships many of those systems might be willing to forgo their own defence industry in favour of purchasing directly from the GA. If the GA were to decide not to sell SD(P)'s but rather sell a class of ships that is already obvious that is obsolete will force every core system to build their own research and development as well as shipyards, which means instead of having 170systems buying from the GA and relying on the GA for technological upgrades with 20-30 systems investing in defence industries you end up with 200 systems investing in their own industries. Thats 200 systems that can come up with their own technological wrinkle that negates a particular GA tech advantage and thats 200 potential competitors.

It took 4 years for the RoH to develop and field a significant number of SD(P)s with which to attack SEM. And that was mostly possible because the SEM was building down and didn't complete a significant number of SD(P)s. 4 years is a long time. The Core systems will be starting at a much higher tech level than RoH. The issues is their tech isn't optimized for war where the RoH is. If the Core puts there mind to it they could certainly do it.

I think you're ignoring several things were already know. 1) There are a plethora of SDFs out there which indicates a military building capacity. 2) That foreign nations want to be dependent on other countries for their military hardware. 3) That planets aren't willing to invest in their own infrastructure to build ships of they don't already have the means. 4) We've already seen what happens when other groups provide tech transfers to other groups. Like when the SL provided tech to the Peeps which allowed them to close the tech gap with SKM. That's essentially what you are advocating.

What would likely end up happening is planets buying 1 or 2 ships, reverse engineering them, and then cutting the GA out. Why give up the advantage you already have.

Additionally, what makes you think you can trust any of those systems you'd sell ships to not to use them to conquer other systems. In you previous response to one of my posts you argued they shouldn't sell DD/CLs to the Verge because they could be used as pirates but now you're cool with selling them to the Core/Shell because?? I mean if there were any group I'd trust less than the Verge it would be the Core given the war they just fought with the GA. Not to mention if they did sell them you know who'd end up buying some? The RF which would be down right awful for the GA.

Of course other places may develop new wrinkles and systems. But that's the nature of the beast. People are doing the now. The GA, the MAlign, the more competition the better if you ask me.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote:
I disagree, you're completely ignoring RFC's comment about microjumping etc.

And you are disregarding the fact that most systems in the verge will not have sufficient infrastructure outside the hyper limit to make having hyper capable units a requirement. If a system has only one or two assets outside of the hyper limit then having a handful of LAC's permanently deployed there would make sense rather than having the ability to chase someone to places where your industry is not located.

That's not a very unique tactic. I don't see why Verge systems wouldn't build/purchase DDs and CL/CAs. Plenty of places in the Quadrant had these prior to entry in the SEM and they were pretty hard scrabble. Hyper Capable units are just tactically more flexible. They also allow you to project force.

I don't know how many verge systems there are, it might be 100 or it might be several thousand but either way it doesn't matter. In many of those systems the situation might not be as stable as one may like, so giving someone the ability to engage in piracy of their own or invade their neighbours to me at least doesn't seem like the most beneficial idea.

Handing out 1,000 DD/CLs to systems knowing that there is a chance that 5%-10% might moonlight as pirates and another 5%-10% might end up as the fleet of a would be warlord isn't the best way to spend resources.


If a verge systems has a fleet with hyper capable units then upgrading the fleet with new units if the need arises makes sense, if a fleet has only LAC's, upgrading said fleet to DD's without waiting for that system to prove of their intentions does not make too much sense.

No, you are missing the point that the majority of industry, even in Verge systems, is located in space and that means infrastructure in their asteroid belt. In the Honorverse, planet-based industry is the exception, although a forward thinking systems with strategic concerns will build some of it at the bottom of a gravity well to give them a cushion in the event of a Yawata Strike scenario.

Unless you have only a single planet to defend, with nothing of value located elsewhere in the system, you need hyper-capable ships. And saying that you are defending only against pirates is not an optimal situation is this means you are planning on defending against only singletons, you need hyper capability.

On the maintenance and crewing issue, it's a nonstarter. Hyper generators take up space in a hull; there is nothing more complicated (or expensive) about running or maintaining a hyper generator than there is about running or maintaining an impeller room. So the only thing you are really saving as a little hull volume and maybe a couple of percent on the price tag.

As I said earlier, or rather to expand on it.

The question that a system is going to ask is what is the SEM using, specifically in the Talbot Cluster and Silesia.
Or the republic of Haven.

The next question is how threatening to they want to appear to their neighbours.

How wide spread are their out of hyper limit facilities.

Finally, how worried are they going to be about being attacked.

For many systems, LAC's supported by missile pods will be enough. Maybe a destroyer or three and a fleet transport converted to LAC tender.
Hell, probably all then can afford.

Manty or Haven export LAC's, though not SOTA ones.