SPOILER end of the MA

ywing14 wrote:

Sigs wrote:With hundreds of soon to be independent systems in the core, shell and verge the GA needs to start designing everything from LAC's and possibly system defence Frigates(non-hyper capable) to BB's, DN's and SD's.

With hundreds of new navies come hundreds of different philosophies about fleet disposition. What some navies might view as obsolete and unworkable others might view as a workable strategy.

I think it would be hard to do system defense vessels that are non hyperspace capable as it would be extremely difficult to get them to their destination. Especially if they're building them for export purposes. However, BBs and DNs sure. I think RoH should sell pretty much everything that isn't a podnaught since they're about to get a complete upgrade to Apollo. That mean's they're getting ghost rider and access to everything else. That makes virtually all their pervious vessels obsolete.

Getting them to their destinations is not the problem. For those too small to be loaded into a freighter's hold, there are hyper-capable tugs and "strap-on" hyper generators. The real problem is that strictly STL vessels are severely handicapped tactically. Sometimes you have to settle for that anyway, but STL ships are pretty much useless if you have infrastructure outside the hyper limit (where quite a few asteroid belts are located), and a hyper-capable opponent can microjump around the perimeter of the HL to draw you hopelessly out of position unless you have only a single point within the system that needs defense,.

Isn't most infrastructure that is outside the hyper limit the sort of thing that wouldn't interest a pirate?

Why would you care about a pirate micro jumping around the hyper limit? Surely they still have to find an incomming ship to make any money, and those tend to both arrive in consistant spaces and head straight for the hyper limit? Very few pirate attacks occur outside it.

There's two types of system defence here. Anti-piracy and anti-invader.

RFC's post is damn valid if you're worried about invaders, but not so much for anti-piracy.

runsforcelery wrote:

ywing14 wrote:With hundreds of soon to be independent systems in the core, shell and verge the GA needs to start designing everything from LAC's and possibly system defence Frigates(non-hyper capable) to BB's, DN's and SD's.

With hundreds of new navies come hundreds of different philosophies about fleet disposition. What some navies might view as obsolete and unworkable others might view as a workable strategy.

I think it would be hard to do system defense vessels that are non hyperspace capable as it would be extremely difficult to get them to their destination. Especially if they're building them for export purposes. However, BBs and DNs sure. I think RoH should sell pretty much everything that isn't a podnaught since they're about to get a complete upgrade to Apollo. That mean's they're getting ghost rider and access to everything else. That makes virtually all their pervious vessels obsolete.

Getting them to their destinations is not the problem. For those too small to be loaded into a freighter's hold, there are hyper-capable tugs and "strap-on" hyper generators. The real problem is that strictly STL vessels are severely handicapped tactically. Sometimes you have to settle for that anyway, but STL ships are pretty much useless if you have infrastructure outside the hyper limit (where quite a few asteroid belts are located), and a hyper-capable opponent can microjump around the perimeter of the HL to draw you hopelessly out of position unless you have only a single point within the system that needs defense,.[/quote]

Ahh hadn't thought of tugs. Agree, I think from a strategic and tactical sense you're doing yourself a disservice by not building hyper capable vessels.

Annachie wrote:Why would you care about a pirate micro jumping around the hyper limit? Surely they still have to find an incomming ship to make any money, and those tend to both arrive in consistant spaces and head straight for the hyper limit? Very few pirate attacks occur outside it.

Historically, pirates raided land bases nearly as often as they intercepted ships. Raiding fixed installations has the big advantage of knowing in advance exactly where to find the riches.

In the Honorverse, it makes some sense that extraction facilities in the asteroid belts could be the target of pirates; by definition what is being extracted is valuable and it has to be shipped somewhere for that value to be realized.

"Invasion" implies an intent to stay. Pirates don't invade, they raid.

runsforcelery wrote:

Getting them to their destinations is not the problem. For those too small to be loaded into a freighter's hold, there are hyper-capable tugs and "strap-on" hyper generators. The real problem is that strictly STL vessels are severely handicapped tactically. Sometimes you have to settle for that anyway, but STL ships are pretty much useless if you have infrastructure outside the hyper limit (where quite a few asteroid belts are located), and a hyper-capable opponent can microjump around the perimeter of the HL to draw you hopelessly out of position unless you have only a single point within the system that needs defense,.

That should be a consideration for those systems that have industry outside the hyper limit to defend. Verge systems would likely be short of industry to defend and therefore can be limited to LAC's and Frigates as they don't really need the ability at least in the initial phases to have hyper capable ships.

Core and shell systems on the other hand might be inclined to purchase hyper capable ships all the way up to SD(P)'s.

IF a Verge system has a lot of industry outside of the hyper limit the GA should consider expanding that systems navy and stationing GA ships there. By the time verge systems build up sufficient industrial capabilities to require a hyper capable navy they will have the manpower, experience and infrastructure to gradually expand.


I don't see a point why the GA should offload a lot of destroyers and cruises to the verge when they may not have the means to operate or maintain them effectively yet and the GA is not sure who can be trusted with a hyper capable ship and who cannot.

ywing14 wrote: Agree, I think from a strategic and tactical sense you're doing yourself a disservice by not building hyper capable vessels.

But in the case of verge systems they simply have no need to have hyper capable units in the immediate future nor do they have the resources to maintain, crew or operate those ships without significant outside assistance. Handing systems hyper capable warships so that they can turn around and either run them into the ground through lack of maintenance or turn them into pirates. Verge systems should focus almost completely on their internal stability and industrial and education improvements while whatever attention they have to spare should go to trade and alliance negotiations, their strategic view is their system.

Weird Harold wrote:

Annachie wrote:Why would you care about a pirate micro jumping around the hyper limit? Surely they still have to find an incomming ship to make any money, and those tend to both arrive in consistant spaces and head straight for the hyper limit? Very few pirate attacks occur outside it.

Historically, pirates raided land bases nearly as often as they intercepted ships. Raiding fixed installations has the big advantage of knowing in advance exactly where to find the riches.

In the Honorverse, it makes some sense that extraction facilities in the asteroid belts could be the target of pirates; by definition what is being extracted is valuable and it has to be shipped somewhere for that value to be realized.

"Invasion" implies an intent to stay. Pirates don't invade, they raid.

And if a verge system were to have infrastructure outside the hyper limit it would be relatively easy to permanently station 3-4 LAC's and a Frigate there as a picket. If you need to protect a certain installation then keeping a detachment from the system navy should be sufficient, add some missile pods and a control platform on or near the industrial platform and you have more then sufficient firepower to meet any pirate. If a system has a lot of industrial assets outside the hyper limit then maybe give them hyper capable warships but it should be based on needs rather then wants.

Sigs wrote:

ywing14 wrote: Agree, I think from a strategic and tactical sense you're doing yourself a disservice by not building hyper capable vessels.

But in the case of verge systems they simply have no need to have hyper capable units in the immediate future nor do they have the resources to maintain, crew or operate those ships without significant outside assistance. Handing systems hyper capable warships so that they can turn around and either run them into the ground through lack of maintenance or turn them into pirates. Verge systems should focus almost completely on their internal stability and industrial and education improvements while whatever attention they have to spare should go to trade and alliance negotiations, their strategic view is their system.

I'll be honest Sigs, I don't know enough about crewing hyper capable/nonhyper capable vessels. However, I don't feel like the maintenance aspect is significantly different. I also don't think they are significantly different to operate. That's not to say from a money standpoint it may be better go with LACs since they are much cheaper and the ones the GA are building are much more capable. But my gut feeling is that if you're going to build anything bigger it makes more sense to make it hyper capable.

Sigs wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:

Getting them to their destinations is not the problem. For those too small to be loaded into a freighter's hold, there are hyper-capable tugs and "strap-on" hyper generators. The real problem is that strictly STL vessels are severely handicapped tactically. Sometimes you have to settle for that anyway, but STL ships are pretty much useless if you have infrastructure outside the hyper limit (where quite a few asteroid belts are located), and a hyper-capable opponent can microjump around the perimeter of the HL to draw you hopelessly out of position unless you have only a single point within the system that needs defense,.

That should be a consideration for those systems that have industry outside the hyper limit to defend. Verge systems would likely be short of industry to defend and therefore can be limited to LAC's and Frigates as they don't really need the ability at least in the initial phases to have hyper capable ships.

Core and shell systems on the other hand might be inclined to purchase hyper capable ships all the way up to SD(P)'s.

IF a Verge system has a lot of industry outside of the hyper limit the GA should consider expanding that systems navy and stationing GA ships there. By the time verge systems build up sufficient industrial capabilities to require a hyper capable navy they will have the manpower, experience and infrastructure to gradually expand.


I don't see a point why the GA should offload a lot of destroyers and cruises to the verge when they may not have the means to operate or maintain them effectively yet and the GA is not sure who can be trusted with a hyper capable ship and who cannot.

I definitely agree, the GA would need to chose wisely about who it gives or sells destroyers/cruisers too. However, it makes sense to sell of some of their older vessels which aren't as useful now. Destroyers are that labor intensive to crew for a lot of the older systems many of which's population average around a billion folks.

I don't foresee the GA selling SD(P)s to anyone. I think that would be a terrible decision.

ywing14 wrote:
I'll be honest Sigs, I don't know enough about crewing hyper capable/nonhyper capable vessels. However, I don't feel like the maintenance aspect is significantly different. I also don't think they are significantly different to operate. That's not to say from a money standpoint it may be better go with LACs since they are much cheaper and the ones the GA are building are much more capable. But my gut feeling is that if you're going to build anything bigger it makes more sense to make it hyper capable.

Frigate should be the largest non hyper capable unit in a fleet, if a system needs DD/CL-SD(P)'s then it would make sense for them to be hyper capable. But for verge systems there is little need for anything larger then a frigate except under some very unique circumstances.