Why no Detweiler regular kids?

runsforcelery wrote:

Annachie wrote:Must admit, I missed the "Benign" part.
Also figured that leaving so many siblings who are in different adoptive famalies would be the sort of thing they wouldn't leave behind.

Houdini cleaned up similar things.

I think the point you may be missing is that they are in different adoptive families and that those families have zero connection to the inner onion. The adoptive parents never even heard of the inner onion.

Once you get inside the members of the Mesan Alignment who aren't part of the inner onion, you're looking at an entirely different mindset. You are also looking at a much larger structure in which there are many hundreds, even thousands, of adoptive families raising genetically engineered clones as their own children. Many of those clones are genetically identical to one another (or very close to that) as part of the uplift program that's been ongoing for generations. There is nothing to distinguish Albrecht's and Evelina's children from all that "background noise." The worst that could happen would be that a painstaking genetic analysis of all adoptive children would reveal that these particular people are biological siblings; there is no way anyone could trace them back to A & E or the inner onion. All anyone could say about them is that they got some really good genes from whoever's sperm and ova were combined to produce them.

A sufficiently close study could trace them back on Evelina's side, but she officially "died" when she married Albrecht. On his side, the trail goes cold immediately, which might pop a mild red flag for the terminally (or constructively) paranoid, but the Consultancy has lots of "anonymous donor" genetic material, and there are bunches of people in the Mesan general population who are at least distantly descended from Leonard Detweiller. The direct line is (officially) extinct; there are oodles of collateral relationships. So even if they had the Detweiller genome for comparison, it wouldn't necessarily prove a thing. And those children--- and their parents --- would be horrified by the Detweiller Plan (as practiced by the inner onion) if they knew about it.

But you can't deny the potential of a psychological powder keg brewing if the news ever got out. Life always finds a way, because that damn meddling Murphy is a, well, meddler, of epic proportions, swimming around in the soup. Are blood tests still required in the Honorverse before marriage? What if down the line, in an RF run part of the galaxy, two of the alienated family members meet and fall in love? Brother marries sister? This Detweiler family gets more dysfunctional by the minute.

WAKE UP FREUD! WHAT A FINE TIME TO SLEEP ON THE JOB!

.

More of a reason to feel that our discussions about the downfall of the MA will come from within the tensions between the Detweiler siblings themselves.

Dysfunctional Detweiler death syndrome.

The humor of it all...

Blood tests before marriage is imperative within the Onion...

If an Alpha from the Detweiler A family marries into the estranged Detweiler B family. Their kids will be born retarded!

Two blood geniuses make a retard. "Why are we having to cull all of our kids?"

Detweiler's kids are alphabetized A, B, C...

Now we learn that the families are too? Offshoot A, B, C...



"Dammit Consequence, you can't put a square peg in a round hole!"

"It works mommy. You just have to use the round head of a hammer!"

cthia wrote:The humor of it all...

Blood tests before marriage is imperative within the Onion...

If an Alpha from the Detweiler A family marries into the estranged Detweiler B family. Their kids will be born retarded!

Two blood geniuses make a retard. "Why are we having to cull all of our kids?"

Detweiler's kids are alphabetized A, B, C...

Now we learn that the families are too? Offshoot A, B, C...



"Dammit Consequence, you can't put a square peg in a round hole!"

"It works mommy. You just have to use the round head of a hammer!"

Make that "Two incestual blood geniuses" will make an Omega 3-free retard.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:The humor of it all...

Blood tests before marriage is imperative within the Onion...

If an Alpha from the Detweiler A family marries into the estranged Detweiler B family. Their kids will be born retarded!

Two blood geniuses make a retard. "Why are we having to cull all of our kids?"

Detweiler's kids are alphabetized A, B, C...

Now we learn that the families are too? Offshoot A, B, C...





"Dammit Consequence, you can't put a square peg in a round hole!"

"It works mommy. You just have to use the round head of a hammer!"

Make that "Two incestual blood geniuses" will make an Omega 3-free retard.

Do you really think that the Mesan genetics people don't know what they're doing?

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:The humor of it all...

Blood tests before marriage is imperative within the Onion...

If an Alpha from the Detweiler A family marries into the estranged Detweiler B family. Their kids will be born retarded!

Two blood geniuses make a retard. "Why are we having to cull all of our kids?"

Detweiler's kids are alphabetized A, B, C...

Now we learn that the families are too? Offshoot A, B, C...





"Dammit Consequence, you can't put a square peg in a round hole!"

"It works mommy. You just have to use the round head of a hammer!"

Make that "Two incestual blood geniuses" will make an Omega 3-free retard.

JohnRoth wrote:Do you really think that the Mesan genetics people don't know what they're doing?

On the contrary...

Indeed I do think that they know what they are doing.* I also think that they think that they know what they are doing. In this case, I question whether they would think that they had cause, or rather the need, to do it -- the thing that they needed to do. In particular, RFC's post states that the estranged siblings were spirited away from the fold and are living separate lives completely oblivious to anything. As are Detweiler's clones.

Would Mesan geneticists feel any need to take precautions against an unlikely meeting resulting in an unlikely marriage causing cullable babies?

We know that Albrecht and Evelina were both chosen for their genetic compatibility. Meaning that normal offspring (byproducts of the two) were expected. If that is the case, then mixable genetic code must be possible for the siblings as well. The very idea of "clones" seem to me to represent an even bigger chance of "genetics gone wrong" if incest is introduced into the equation.

And yes, of course I could be wrong in my logic. But not wrong to consider it.

*OTOH, I also think that they are human and not gods -- with faults, frailties, insecurities and limitations not unlike the rest of us mere mortals. An errant thread that has shown itself as of late.

cthia wrote:The humor of it all...

Blood tests before marriage is imperative within the Onion...

If an Alpha from the Detweiler A family marries into the estranged Detweiler B family. Their kids will be born retarded!

Two blood geniuses make a retard. "Why are we having to cull all of our kids?"

Detweiler's kids are alphabetized A, B, C...

Now we learn that the families are too? Offshoot A, B, C...





"Dammit Consequence, you can't put a square peg in a round hole!"

"It works mommy. You just have to use the round head of a hammer!"

cthia wrote:Make that "Two incestual blood geniuses" will make an Omega 3-free retard.

JohnRoth wrote:Do you really think that the Mesan genetics people don't know what they're doing?

cthia wrote:On the contrary...

Indeed I do think that they know what they are doing.* I also think that they think that they know what they are doing. In this case, I question whether they would think that they had cause, or rather the need, to do it -- the thing that they needed to do. In particular, RFC's post states that the estranged siblings were spirited away from the fold and are living separate lives completely oblivious to anything. As are Detweiler's clones.

Would Mesan geneticists feel any need to take precautions against an unlikely meeting resulting in an unlikely marriage causing cullable babies?

We know that Albrecht and Evelina were both chosen for their genetic compatibility. Meaning that normal offspring (byproducts of the two) were expected. If that is the case, then mixable genetic code must be possible for the siblings as well. The very idea of "clones" seem to me to represent an even bigger chance of "genetics gone wrong" if incest is introduced into the equation.

And yes, of course I could be wrong in my logic. But not wrong to consider it.

*OTOH, I also think that they are human and not gods -- with faults, frailties, insecurities and limitations not unlike the rest of us mere mortals. An errant thread that has shown itself as of late.

One of the things you may not know about me: I've been interested in genetics since college - back in the 60s. And I do try to keep up, with a number of blogs from people who are actually working in the field.

High school genetics goes into Mendelian inheritance; dominant and recessive genes, and it gives the impression that a dominant gene completely suppresses a recessive gene. Would that it were so!

In fact, most recessive genes are transcribed into mRNA and then into proteins that either do nothing beyond gum up the works, or else into proteins that have unlovely effects. And the lack of the proper amount of gene product has its own effects.

In addition, most complex characteristics, from height to intelligence, are the result of many genes, each of which has a small effect. In fact, I've seen competent professional opinion that there is no such thing as a gene for intelligence: intelligence is a result of pretty much all of the genome. To put it another way, a person whose genome had no defects would be someone with very high intelligence.

Considering all this, I seriously doubt that the Mesan geneticists working on the Star lines would have left any defective genes.

JohnRoth wrote:

cthia wrote:The humor of it all...

Blood tests before marriage is imperative within the Onion...

If an Alpha from the Detweiler A family marries into the estranged Detweiler B family. Their kids will be born retarded!

Two blood geniuses make a retard. "Why are we having to cull all of our kids?"

Detweiler's kids are alphabetized A, B, C...

Now we learn that the families are too? Offshoot A, B, C...





"Dammit Consequence, you can't put a square peg in a round hole!"

"It works mommy. You just have to use the round head of a hammer!"

cthia wrote:Make that "Two incestual blood geniuses" will make an Omega 3-free retard.

JohnRoth wrote:Do you really think that the Mesan genetics people don't know what they're doing?

cthia wrote:On the contrary...

Indeed I do think that they know what they are doing.* I also think that they think that they know what they are doing. In this case, I question whether they would think that they had cause, or rather the need, to do it -- the thing that they needed to do. In particular, RFC's post states that the estranged siblings were spirited away from the fold and are living separate lives completely oblivious to anything. As are Detweiler's clones.

Would Mesan geneticists feel any need to take precautions against an unlikely meeting resulting in an unlikely marriage causing cullable babies?

We know that Albrecht and Evelina were both chosen for their genetic compatibility. Meaning that normal offspring (byproducts of the two) were expected. If that is the case, then mixable genetic code must be possible for the siblings as well. The very idea of "clones" seem to me to represent an even bigger chance of "genetics gone wrong" if incest is introduced into the equation.

And yes, of course I could be wrong in my logic. But not wrong to consider it.

*OTOH, I also think that they are human and not gods -- with faults, frailties, insecurities and limitations not unlike the rest of us mere mortals. An errant thread that has shown itself as of late.

One of the things you may not know about me: I've been interested in genetics since college - back in the 60s. And I do try to keep up, with a number of blogs from people who are actually working in the field.

High school genetics goes into Mendelian inheritance; dominant and recessive genes, and it gives the impression that a dominant gene completely suppresses a recessive gene. Would that it were so!

In fact, most recessive genes are transcribed into mRNA and then into proteins that either do nothing beyond gum up the works, or else into proteins that have unlovely effects. And the lack of the proper amount of gene product has its own effects.

In addition, most complex characteristics, from height to intelligence, are the result of many genes, each of which has a small effect. In fact, I've seen competent professional opinion that there is no such thing as a gene for intelligence: intelligence is a result of pretty much all of the genome. To put it another way, a person whose genome had no defects would be someone with very high intelligence.

Considering all this, I seriously doubt that the Mesan geneticists working on the Star lines would have left any defective genes.

I recall you mentioning it before. I'm impressed with anyone with that interest. I am nowhere in your league. That's for damn sure. Intense discussions regarding genetics makes my brain hurt as I've shared on many occasions.

However, all of my Romanian friends are doctors or surgeons. All of them. Except perhaps their spouses. Two of them are specializing in gene therapies. They are also Honorverse fans. (It is why I tried so hard to recruit them to the forum for certain expertise.) The Detweiler subject fueled their conversations for months, not hours, but months. Rekindling weeks later. They would always attempt to water it down when I was in their midst, but that only confused me more and inhibited their conversation. So I mostly listened instead of interrupting. I did allow myself questions during the lulls. Since they would at least carry the conversation in English for my benefit, I took that blessing and ran with it.

I'm aware that two recessive genes can overpower a dominant one. I'm also aware that cutting edge genetic manipulation as the MAlign are doing takes generations to perfect. One alteration at a time. And that mistakes may not manifest themselves for quite a few generations, due to many factors including the environment.

The point of no return (frowned upon by Beowulf) being manipulated by the Malign is cutting edge even for them. They may have come a long way to achieve their genetic goals, but, as I understand it, they have a long way to go to ensure those goals were without side effects -- as Detweiler knew since he never passed any alterations upstream for generations.

JohnRoth wrote:Considering all this, I seriously doubt that the Mesan geneticists working on the Star lines would have left any defective genes.

Like psychopathy? They are not gods, any more than the geneticists that originally blundered the galaxy into the age of the Final Wars. They simply culled -- err murdered -- a lot of babies to get where they are.

Late Edit: One of them is a neurosurgeon, jump started by Obama's Brain Initiative, mentioned elsewhere in another post floating about somewhere in hyper.

Before I get started, I want to point to a blog post that may explain some of where I'm coming from. Fair Warning: this is not for a general audience; it's for an audience of people who understand the basics, including specialist terminology, of inheritance, evolution and intelligence. This is it. It's a long read, and a lot of it's currently contentious.

The issue with genetic manipulation in the Honorverse is intelligence (ignoring the genetic slavery issue.) Granted, a Mesan Alpha like Albrecht Detweiler has a boatload of other enhancements like longer life, more strength and so forth, but the core of what RFC is discussing is the effect of a more intelligent group in starting racism again.

cthia wrote:
. . . snip . . .

I'm aware that two recessive genes can overpower a dominant one. I'm also aware that cutting edge genetic manipulation as the MAlign are doing takes generations to perfect. One alteration at a time. And that mistakes may not manifest themselves for quite a few generations, due to many factors including the environment.

Apparently not. There simply haven't been enough generations for that kind of program to work.

cthia wrote:The point of no return (frowned upon by Beowulf) being manipulated by the Malign is cutting edge even for them. They may have come a long way to achieve their genetic goals, but, as I understand it, they have a long way to go to ensure those goals were without side effects -- as Detweiler knew since he never passed any alterations upstream for generations.

I'm not sure where you get any of this. It's certainly not how I read the stories.

cthia wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:Considering all this, I seriously doubt that the Mesan geneticists working on the Star lines would have left any defective genes.

Like psychopathy? They are not gods, any more than the geneticists that originally blundered the galaxy into the age of the Final Wars. They simply culled -- err murdered -- a lot of babies to get where they are.

Again, and to repeat the earlier discussion, I'm not at all sure where you get the idea that psychopathy is one of the side effects.

Ingroup and outgroup seems to be an inherent part of the human species. And when it arises, there are usually major differences in what's moral in treating a member of the in-group and a member of the outgroup.

An example: I live in Albuquerque. A few miles south of me there is a street named "Indian School Road." If you're familiar with the situation that name references, you might be able to draw a parallel with something that's of current political interest.

Nuff said on that; please direct responses to the politics forum, which I guarantee I will not look at.

@JohnRoth. Addressing the subject and link regarding IQ, John. First off, thanks for the link.

The group wrangled with that one for a long time. Lots of grey matter was expended on the subject. As I said, there's a neurosurgeon in the group. Who has a neuroscientist in her family.

She agrees with the absurdity of the idea of genetic intelligence, which they quickly pointed out would fit with many extremists' views if it were so. Like, well, Hitler's master race.

As it was explained to this layman...

She, they, pointed out that the human brain is an unmolded lump of clay that becomes molded through experiences, interactions and the environment which affects the forming of neural connections. Proper stimulation is very important to ensure intelligence, all else being equal. The brain has to be exercised from infancy, with the proper stimulation. This fact sits center stage why blocks, Legos and toys are important to cognitive development. Absent this set of criteria could result in lower intelligences. IOW, we very well may be a product of our environment.

I'd like to know what she'd have to say about defective genes producing lower intelligence since she shared her study of autism which yields some very intelligent people, although within certain parameters. In autistic kids, a certain section of the brain is more active.

In a nutshell, experiences encourage or hinder the road to intelligence by releasing endorphins. Happiness releases endorphins. They discussed the possibility that the lack of endorphins could be responsible for mental illness. A child growing up in an intensely abusive family completely devoid of proper simulation may experience a lack of endorphins. Endorphins are addicting, and exposed to them early on as an infant and nourished can open the road to intelligence.


However, they did discuss ways that the MAlign could have found to genetically influence intelligence, as a side effect. They could have found ways to increase synaptic plasticity. Axonal coupling. Synaptogenesis, focus, etc., etc., and much much more. They could even have found a way to encourage use of more of the brain. Which involved discussions way outside of my brain.

See this post