SPOILER end of the MA

ywing14 wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think Weird Harold is probably right, or mostly so, anyway. The point is not that Manticore knew about the Peep commerse raiding and decided to respond. They didn't which your quote amply demonstrates. The point is the other way around. Peep commerse raiding drove losses so high that Manticore was forced to respond which they did by sending the Trojans. At the time they did that, it was believed that they were dealing with increased piracy due to draw down of light units due to the demands at the front. That is what the text you are quoting demonstrates. While they only discover the Peep op later, it was Peep activity that drove the Admiralty to react by adding their own op to what was already a serious situation.

At the same time, Manticore's drawdown in light units did indeed take pressure of the pirates and make the situation worse.

Don

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See that is where I disagree. I interpret that chapter as indicating the Peeps weren't raiding yet or had only recently started raiding. The Peeps commerce raiding pattern's didn't appear until after Honor was deployed. That's when she finds out essentially entire convoys are being punched out. That is why I don't believe the Peeps impacted the Admiralty's decision.

I totally agree that the draw down made the situation nearly untenable.

You are right in that the Admiralty didn't know about the Peep op at the time that the decision to deploy the Trojans is made. Honor only discovers the Peep commerse raiding once she is in Silesia. I am not aware of textev establishing how long the Peep op had been going on.

But consider this. Do you remember that interview between Klaus Hauptman and Admiral Capprelli... an interview in which Hauptman tells the good admiral that losses in Silesia are so high that the cartels may have have to suspend operations.

Peeps or pirates? Dunno. Peeps doesn't occur to Sir Thomas. Not really conclusive one way or the other. But still, the inference of losses higher than could be accounted for by pirates alone is there.

So who knows?

Don

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Manticore is reacting to problems in Silesia that don't really have any obvious connection to the Peeps. It's always been a rats nest of problems with the SCN not able to do any serious anti-piracy. So Hauptman and others have been complaining (rightly so) to the Admiralty about "piracy" losses and the solution by the Admiralty is to send a squadron of Q-ships to clean things up.
From the Peep's perspective, it is cutting into Manticore's trade and diverting ships to cover merchant shipping in a remote (to the war) area. So divert warships of Manticore to Silesia and then keep capturing (or just destroying) MMS and other ships and perhaps kill RMN light units.
Ok....the Alignment could want to do the same thing, probably using proxy ships of "supported" but ignorent of the Alignment motives to attack GA shipping or cause probems in the newly independnt Verge. I'ts a swamp out there or it will be shortly and you are going to need people who can track down and kill off the vermin preying on "honest" merchant shipping.
Besides, it can make a lot of interesting reading:)

ywing14 wrote:

n7axw wrote:I think Weird Harold is probably right, or mostly so, anyway. The point is not that Manticore knew about the Peep commerse raiding and decided to respond. They didn't which your quote amply demonstrates. The point is the other way around. Peep commerse raiding drove losses so high that Manticore was forced to respond which they did by sending the Trojans. At the time they did that, it was believed that they were dealing with increased piracy due to draw down of light units due to the demands at the front. That is what the text you are quoting demonstrates. While they only discover the Peep op later, it was Peep activity that drove the Admiralty to react by adding their own op to what was already a serious situation.

At the same time, Manticore's drawdown in light units did indeed take pressure of the pirates and make the situation worse.

Don

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See that is where I disagree. I interpret that chapter as indicating the Peeps weren't raiding yet or had only recently started raiding. The Peeps commerce raiding pattern's didn't appear until after Honor was deployed. That's when she finds out essentially entire convoys are being punched out. That is why I don't believe the Peeps impacted the Admiralty's decision.

I totally agree that the draw down made the situation nearly untenable.

You are right in that the Admiralty didn't know about the Peep op at the time that the decision to deploy the Trojans is made. Honor only discovers the Peep commerse raiding once she is in Silesia. I am not aware of textev establishing how long the Peep op had been going on.

But consider this. Do you remember that interview between Klaus Hauptman and Admiral Capprelli... an interview in which Hauptman tells the good admiral that losses in Silesia are so high that the cartels may have have to suspend operations.

Peeps or pirates? Dunno. Peeps doesn't occur to Sir Thomas. Not really conclusive one way or the other. But still, the inference of losses higher than could be accounted for by pirates alone is there.

So who knows?

Don

-[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, it didn't matter who was doing it. Just that the losses were approaching the level of being unstainable. I was just addressing the earlier point about the Peeps being the reason Honor was being sent out. I just didn't agree with that part.

ywing14 wrote:Don't get me wrong, it didn't matter who was doing it. Just that the losses were approaching the level of being unstainable. I was just addressing the earlier point about the Peeps being the reason Honor was being sent out. I just didn't agree with that part.

The Peeps weren't the "reason" she was sent out, the unsustainable losses were. That the losses were unsustainable were, in large part, due to the Peeps actions is the point.

The RMN admiralty did NOT know that the losses were because of enemy action, but that doesn't change the fact that they were.

Weird Harold wrote:

ywing14 wrote:Don't get me wrong, it didn't matter who was doing it. Just that the losses were approaching the level of being unstainable. I was just addressing the earlier point about the Peeps being the reason Honor was being sent out. I just didn't agree with that part.

The Peeps weren't the "reason" she was sent out, the unsustainable losses were. That the losses were unsustainable were, in large part, due to the Peeps actions is the point.

The RMN admiralty did NOT know that the losses were because of enemy action, but that doesn't change the fact that they were.

And what I am saying the Peeps were not responsible those losses which lead to Honor being dispatched. The Peep raiding patterns don't appear until after Honor get's to Gregor. Since those losses and pattern don't arrive until after Honor got there then I don't believe the Peeps were responsible for them.

ywing14 wrote:[quote="Weird

And what I am saying the Peeps were not responsible those losses which lead to Honor being dispatched. The Peep raiding patterns don't appear until after Honor get's to Gregor. Since those losses and pattern don't arrive until after Honor got there then I don't believe the Peeps were responsible for them.

This is an argument that is impossible to resolve conclusively one way or the other. What we have as textev can be read either way. I agree with Harold, but there is no way to prove you are mistaken. And... I'm not sure that it really matters. There was a problem and the trojans were sent out.

Don

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n7axw wrote:

ywing14 wrote:[quote="Weird

And what I am saying the Peeps were not responsible those losses which lead to Honor being dispatched. The Peep raiding patterns don't appear until after Honor get's to Gregor. Since those losses and pattern don't arrive until after Honor got there then I don't believe the Peeps were responsible for them.

This is an argument that is impossible to resolve conclusively one way or the other. What we have as textev can be read either way. I agree with Harold, but there is no way to prove you are mistaken. And... I'm not sure that it really matters. There was a problem and the trojans were sent out.

Don

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Oh I agree Don, you and Harold could certainly be right but like you said there is no way to be certain from the texev.

Vince wrote:The GA knows that the Mesan Alignment doesn't have a large navy at the present time. White Haven reporting to the Empress immediately after the Yawata strike:

There are several problems with what you said and the "evidence":
1) There was no GA at the time.
2) The Manticore Alliance knew nothing about the MA.
3) They were still thinking in terms of rogue corporations causing problems not nations no-one knows about.
4) As far as the SKM/SEM knew the entire operation was intended to weaken them so that the RHN can finish them off.


As far as OB and MA is concerned the MA has plans that the GA is not aware of, so that means that it might not have been in their best interest to destroy the RMN and conquer the SKM. What's more it could be that the Spider Drive equipped ships were the MAN's equivalent to Special Forces, just because you have only 5,000 Special Forces soldiers in your army doesn't mean your army consists of 5,000 soldiers and just because you have a few Spider Drive ships in your navy doesn't mean that is all you have in your navy. There may be an unknown problem that limits the number of ships, maybe they are expensive or maybe there are any number of other reasons why there are so few.

At the end of the day someone looking at the US Army Green Berets and assuming that they are the army will have a very bad day when the other 1,000,000 soldiers show up to the party.

Silesia is a great example of why anti-piracy is not a solution but a tool. If the SKM had solved the initial problem 200+ years before the war with Haven they wouldn't have had to face 200+ years of mounting casualties with no solution in sight. Same goes for the verge/protectorates, empower them and give them the means to stamp out piracy in their region while punishing anyone who benefits from piracy and 200 years later you have a lot of stable nations, on the other hand if you go ahead and do the anti piracy for them and do not give them the means to build themselves up the next emergency that requires your naval attention lets the entire verge blow up soon after you withdraw.

A valid point, Sig. I totally agree. That's why the GA MUST facilitate those star nations acquiring the tools to defend their star system from pirates. LACs and systems defense pods suitable for ex-ports seems perfect to deny pirates any sort of a bush grounds. Provide export grade warships to regional alliances to actually combat pirate bases and any Gustav Anderman wannabes. That doesn't mean the RMN will rely on foreigners to completely protect Manticoran registry ships. They will escort more than they will patrol, but even so the RMN will retain the wherewithal to root out pirates where ever pirates are found. That means a heavy dose of DDs and CLs.

Their building requirements also require using slips for export models of those lighter combatants and the odd export CA. The SEM's security requirements demand building enough ships to protect the entirety of the space the SLN has just vacated. Those ships will simply be manned by newly independent star systems. Given the immensity of the spaces those systems occupy, the output of the GA's entire building capacity will likely be hard pressed to fill demand for warships. Solly yards will contribute their output, but those ships will be second tier ships. Given an option for ex-protectorates to rely on GA systems or Solly systems, those star nations will choose GA products.

This doesn't include Core Worlds optiong out of the SL 2.0 who will need a serious navy. These folks will wasn't admission to the GA and tier 1 ships and systems. Assuming there are ~100 of these systems, that's a bunchoton of hulls to produce. Most of those Core Worlds will develop their own yards eventually, but will rely on GA designs initially. That demand will require SDPs and BCs. Not building those ships will mean the old SLN BCs will become the difference maker in any naval engagement. That isn't a good thing for the GA.

So, it doesn't matter that the GA won't need to patrol all of the galaxy, they will be building most of the ships that will patrol the galaxy.

Sigs wrote:Silesia is a great example of why anti-piracy is not a solution but a tool. If the SKM had solved the initial problem 200+ years before the war with Haven they wouldn't have had to face 200+ years of mounting casualties with no solution in sight. Same goes for the verge/protectorates, empower them and give them the means to stamp out piracy in their region while punishing anyone who benefits from piracy and 200 years later you have a lot of stable nations, on the other hand if you go ahead and do the anti piracy for them and do not give them the means to build themselves up the next emergency that requires your naval attention lets the entire verge blow up soon after you withdraw.